Is God the Cause of sin and evil in the world ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, May 31, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    The answer to the question is absolutely Yes ! All things are made or created for God's good pleasure Rev 4:11

    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    If we believe in the True and Living God, then we ought know He is the First Cause of all causes.

    He created the devil for His Pleasure and ordained his activities, He created Adam for His pleasure and ordained his activities and the subsequent consequences.

    From the time God said this Gen 1:1-3

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    It put into effect this Eph 1:11


    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    If we do not believe this, rest in this, and we do debate it, reject it, we are no better off than an athiest ! We are as David wrote Ps 14:1

    The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Your whole soteriology is based upon such foolishness. God cannot sin neither can he tempt others to sin. Sin is the consequence of creating responsible beings capable of choosing right or wrong. Sin and its consequences is a matter of the permissive will of God involved in creating free will. Sin is by permission through beings responsible for their own choices and actions. However, God determines even its boundaries so that nothing occurs that eventually will not work for His ultimate glory and the good of His people (Psa. 96:10).
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    Uh no
    and so on and so forth.
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    the bib

    More deceit and misrepresentation, for I never once said or implied that God sinned !
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    the bib



    Thats foolishness, God permits nothing that was not preordained for His purpose ! Not the God of the Bible anyway, which you do not believe in !

    Sin is by decreed by God by beings that God made in order for them to be accountable and responsible for bringing in sin according to His Eternal Purpose !

    Adam sinned and brought sin into the world because God wanted Him to, for Adam was created to serve in the Eternal redemptive Purpose of Christ Jesus ! Adam must sin and plunge the Elect into their need for Redemption !
     
  6. mandym

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    Here we go folks. This is the nutty false doctrine that comes out of hyper-Calvinsim that can be so easily shown to be false according to scripture.


    Ready! Here we go:


    Now we know.....the rest of the story!
     
  7. JonC

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    I don’t understand your argument. Evil isn’t “something” to be created, but rather an action in relation to something else (in this case, God). Are you saying that God caused man to do evil rather than ordaining the evil act to occur and therefore created evil? (I know it is a view, just not sure it is your view).
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    jon c

    I cannot help that !

    .
    What scripture says that ? Isa 45:7

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    Yes ! By His Purpose. Could man have done evil if God did not give him being first ?
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    That is exactly what you are teaching because you assign the cause and source of sin to the Person and character of God.

    Second, you don't know the difference between God's will of Pleasure and God's Permissive will.

    God can never look upon sin with pleasure but allows it by permission only to obtain a greater goal.
     
  10. Scarlett O.

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    ....for your consideration, SBM. I was going to try to explain this, but here is a much more succinct version.

    Question: "Why does Isaiah 45:7 say that God created evil?"

    Answer:
    Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

    (2) The context of
    Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.
    ..............................................................................................................................
    Question: "Did God create evil?"

    Answer:
    At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

    Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

    God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

    As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (
    Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    You are such an arrogant unkind person. He simply tells you he does not understand what you mean and asks for clarification and you respond like a demon rather than a child of God. Where is the fruit of the Spirit?
     
  12. Fred's Wife

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    I agree :thumbs:
     
  13. JonC

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    That is unfortunate. Why bother posting if you are unable to explain what you are posting to those who are having trouble understanding your position?

    But you sell yourself short – through your perceived inadequacy you have actually helped me to understand a little of your argument.




    As presented in this verse (and as described in Joshua 23:15 and 1 Kings 14:9-10: evil as opposed to peace or action contrary to men) I do agree that God creates evil.


    I am still not certain that I understand your premise regarding “evil” as opposition to God (or if this was even your intent). Am I correct that your affirmation indicates that you hold that God actively caused men to oppose Him and therefore God is the responsible cause of evil (here meaning active rebellion or opposition against God)?
     
  14. DHK

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    Do you, in your folly, accuse the Lord Jesus Christ of being an atheist?
    Think it through carefully before answering.
    Sodom and Gomorrah chose their wicked lifestyle. They didn't have to. All creation witnessed of the eternal Godhead so that they were without excuse (Romans 1:20). The heavens declare the glory of God...(Psalm 19:1-3). The law of God is written in their hearts. Their consciences bear them witness, they accuse and excuse one another (Romans 2:14,15).
    They did not have to choose the ville lifestyle that they did. They had the opportunity to choose to believe in the God of creation, even as Abraham did, while he was still in Ur, and lived among an idolatrous people.

    What did Jesus say about this:
    Matthew 11:22-23 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

    23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

    Jesus said that if he had performed his miracles in the time of Sodom, and in Sodom, they would have believed and repented. The city would have remained until this day. Judgment would have been averted. But Jesus didn't come in the flesh until 2,000 years after that time. Thus in some way judgment will be harsher for those people in Capernaum than it will be for the people of Sodom who didn't have a chance to reject the works of Jesus.

    They did have a choice even as the people of Caperanum had a choice. That is what Jesus is teaching. Their decisions were not made from before the foundation of the world.

    Again, IF the people of Sodom had seen my works...
    Jesus is teaching they had a choice. That choice Jesus said was not made before the foundation of the world.

    Do not call Jesus an atheist.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    You pervert God, by your ignorance of Him!

    God cannot lie, be tempted, nor tempt others..

    satan and Adam BOTH did as they freely desired, God would not cause them to sin against their wills, as that would make God out to be no different than satan, as he would be author of BOTH good/evil, sin/death and life!

    God IS light, and in Him NO darkness dwells!
     
  16. JonC

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    He didn't say that they sinned against their wills.
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    didn't he propose that the Lord caused them to sin though, as he would take delight in their disobedience, as ALL THINGS are per his Will and purpose, per him?
     
  18. JonC

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    I’m not sure what he purposes. We all have different gifts, some have the gift of teaching while others do not (Romans 12:6-7). At this time, savedbymercy has enough integrity to say that he cannot expand on his views in such a way as to make them accessible to those of different dispositions or understandings. But I wouldn’t assume to know what he believes simply because he cannot explain his views. They are his dots and I can’t connect them. All I can do is read what he has posted.

    For the most part, the comments are dependent upon explanation. As it stands the first post is vague to the point of being meaningless. For example, God could be the “cause” of sin in the sense that He created man with the capability to sin and that this sin works within the plan of God. If God didn’t permit it, we couldn’t sin (which would fit in with many passages in post #1). I could say this and still say that God doesn’t cause sin. Did God ordain the fall? Both Calvin and Arminius would agree that the fall was ordained at least in that occurring it served God’s plan (a certainty within God’s plan, but not a necessity). Then again, he could mean that God actually sins by “causing” man to stumble and that God caused the fall by decree (which is indicated in post #5). The first post is both vague and unexplained.

    The only place savedbymercy actually says anything is in post #5 when he says that God decreed sin. This would mean that God not only ordained sin, but that God authored sin -that it would occur by necessity. This would mean that man is not responsible for sin and that the responsibility rests on God alone – but responsibility is actually irrelevant if this is supposed because man is only acting out a designed purpose to a designed end. That’s just looking at what he wrote in absence of explanation – I don’t know what he means to say. But he doesn’t say that man is unwillingly forced to sin (although that may be his intent).
     
    #18 JonC, May 31, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2012
  19. savedbymercy

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    dhk

    Where have I done that ? That is bearing false witness unless you can provide the post that I stated that in ! The Lord Jesus Christ I serve has not posted on this board !
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    It was God's will that Adam sin and bring sin and evil into the World. Before God Created the World, before He Created Adam, it was already determined in the Eternal Purpose of God, that Christ in time would be slain by wicked hands of sinful men ! Acts 2:23

    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    He was already slain by these wicked hands in the Eternal Purpose of God Rev 13:8

    8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    1 Pet 1:20

    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Now who is going to question that God did purpose and want Adam to sin and bring evil and wickedness into the World to fulfill His Decree for Christ ?
     

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