Is God's Sovereign really absolute control of everything?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by ILUVLIGHT, Jan 10, 2005.

  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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    Hi Everyone;
    God's Sovereignty keeps coming up and I'd like to know just how Sovereign God really is. What I mean is that many have said that God controls everything right down to the color of bath towels in your bath room.

    What would or could be the purpose of this, isn't God capable of creating humans with a cognitive ability so that they can run them selves?

    In Short how would it effect God's Sovereignty if He allowed man to be a free agent?. Able to make choices in whom he would serve.

    Some believe men aren't allowed this choice simply because it would be stealing God's glory or His Sovereignty.

    If God is in control of everything as some have suggested then shouldn't He be able to change things to keep them on track?

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  2. rc

    rc
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    I Luv Light,

    Read Jonathan Edwards' "The End for Which God Created the World" for this easy answer.
     
  3. Monergist

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    Can you change the course of the sun, moon and stars? Can you hold back volcanoes, create floods, and determine times of sunshine and rain? Can you heal a man dying of AIDS or give life to the lifeless body of a child?

    Can you stop a sparrow from falling to the ground at its appointed time, or can you put back in to place the hair of your head that God orders to fall?

    Can you change the hearts of your enemies to be at peace with you; the enemies of our nation?-- Go change the heart of the muslim terrorist! Can you tell the end from the beginning, and tell us things that will be before they ever are? Can you march yourself into the throne room of heaven and throw down the challenge, "Why have you made me thus?"

    You want to know how Sovereign God is? Go and do these things.

    And when you've done them all, you can then change my heart so that I will listen to your piddly-little objections against your Creator.
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    Do you think that God watches the sparrow and says, "well little birdie, it is your time, so die already" and the birdy just does a double back flop?

    No, God does however know that it happened at its appointed time.

    Does God lose His Sovereignty because he did not actually remove the life from the sparrow, but instead allowed the course that he established to be run to its conclusion?
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Who appointed the time?

    And why do you think this is an either/or situation?
     
  6. Johnv

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    I've never quite heard it put like that but, sure, I'll go with that. God created color. God put it in the minds of people to manufacture bath towels. God also created the physical laws of the universe that allow me to choose a certain color over another. So, yes, God has control over the color of my bath towels, which, btw, are sage green.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi RC;
    Why should have to read Jonathan Edwards when I have you to explain it to me.
    If I wanted to read a book rather than communicate with all my friends at BB.com I'd read a book.
    I would think that someone as knowledgable as you are about God's Sovereignty you would have your own input.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Monergist;
    If I could do all this it would only be through Christ. He is the only power of this kind that I might be able to muster, if I had the faith of a mustard seed. I've never tried to do any of these things but Christ certainly suggested that it is possible for a man to do.

    I have no objections against my creator. What I have is an objection to men assuming they know what God's attributes are.
    What is "piddley" is your explanation that you hope answers, yet do not quite cover the subject.

    If God is in control of everything as you no doubt falsely believe. Then can you tell me how election was achieved with out God's respect of what certain men do? You see Calvinist believe that only a few are elect. Was this election random? What was it that God had in mind when He elected only a few? I believe He certainly had a choice in order to choose. Don't you have a good answer for why He chose you?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi JohnV;
    Nice color it is to. I have some the same color reminds me of all that sage brush in Utah. Seriously though does He choose what color you are using at any given time?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    Who appointed the time?

    And why do you think this is an either/or situation?
    </font>[/QUOTE]In the Creation God established the times and seasons, and He did it so that he would not have to watch every single life in every single life-form through its unique, individual life. He probably realized that he would really have trouble with man though.
     
  11. Johnv

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    We tend to limit God by thinking of him in our linear timeline. Just as God is present in all places at once, God is present in all points of time at once, nonlinearly. So, from a "God's eye view", God knows which color I will choose at the same time he created that color and all creation.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    God is sovereign in everything He desires to accomplish in time and in eternity. He, however, is not so sovereign that He Himself could sin or fall from grace. He eternally lives and moves within His Divine attributes.

    In the Garden the Lord asked Adam to name all of the living creatures all by himself. In situations like this God in His sovereignty has willed to make human beings self-governing.

    Also, it pleased the Lord God to give every living human being a freedom of his or her will. As the Gospel is published or proclaimed He calls by His Spirit men and women to the meaning of His life, death, resurrection and so on. When we were first saved we might not have known the majority of the meaning of the Bible, but enough that we could received Christ. Is man pushed about the planet like a chess piece? No.

    Revelation 22:17f does not say that the elect will come to Him and drink of the water of life, but rather, ‘Whoever wills, let him take of the water of life freely.’

    Yes, we bow to His sovereignty even in our dependence on Him for our daily bread and water.

    There would be absolutely no meaning to worship and adoration if God placed the words and act in our mouths and hearts. No matter what some of you think, grace is offered as a gift to be received or rejected. [Ephesians 2:8]

    The human agent, created by the sovereign God will make Hell hot for those who reject Him, and a joy and felicity to those who receive the Son, our Savior. [I John 5:11]

    Neither is God a Deist kind of god who exists, but is uninterested and uninvolved in His world. All of the future events of the Bible must take place because He will providentially bring them into human history, such as the Battle of Armageddon, [Revelation 16:16] and the Great White Throne Judgment [Revelation 20:11]

    As to forced salvation and damnation, this is the folly of men. Jesus ‘wishes’ {Greek} that all people will be saved, [I Timothy 2:4a; John 3:17] but knows that some people will use their free agency to their own demise and eternal ruin in Hell. [John 3:18b,c]

    ‘The Lord is King forever and ever’; in this sense His is sovereign over all of His creation and created beings. [Psalm 10:16]

    There would be no justice or glory to God in autocratically damning the majority and merely dying for part of His lost human beings.

    Time is given to us to make this greatest of all choices, our eternal destiny.

    Almighty God remains sovereign because He wills the freedom of the will, [Revelation 22:17] while respecting our choices, even though [​IMG] He continually is calling the lost to Himself.
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    I meant to say this.

    The sovereign God, Who created the human agent, will make Hell hot for those who reject Him, and a joy and felicity to those who receive the Son, our Savior. [I John 5:11] [​IMG]
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    God is sovereign enough to have created ONCE, all that is necessary! He is also sovereign enough to know how it all works, and to have built into his creation, perpetuation of the species! Life goes on!
     
  15. rc

    rc
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    I Luv Light.. love the sarcasm...

    There is no way I can with clarity explain what J.E. expounds on in his book(s). His books are loaded with much scripture and is VERY well respected and considered the greatest Christian mind in American history... Of course you could argue that, but it is worth reading. Remember, one can not learn unless one studies both sides of any issue WELL. Not saying you haven't but that's just a quote...

    RC
     
  16. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi RC;
    I don't believe that the Puritains are any more right today than they were 300 years ago. They certainly didn't have a perfect theology then and don't have today. The same is true of all Calvinist. What I've been trying to get you to see is this is a debate forum. It is really difficult to debate with dead men. For one thing they never have anything new to say do they. They are limited to the questions that were asked of them when they were alive. If they didn't answer any one of those questions then you would really have a hard time getting it out of them. Get my point. Personally I feel there have been a lot of very smart men over the centuries but no single man ever had all the answers. Especially 300 years ago. What I would like is that you would stand up and defend your theology yourself.

    Peter had this to say about giving men an answer.

    1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    If you can't give an answer on your own then maybe it would serve you best to seek those answers and keep them ready. This is what being ready is all about. You seem so sure of your theology but your assuredness is in men of the past and not in the truth of the present. Not even the Puritans can boast that there own theology hasn't changed in 300 years because it has and this is also true of all Calvinist.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Ray;
    Maybe I miss named this thread. I should have named it" The Calvinist Idea of God's Sovereignty".

    Oh well, I guess I'm not perfect. I've read so many times that God would not be Sovereign if man was a free agent. That if man were free to choose right or wrong then this would be diminishing the Sovereignty of God. If this were true then the random selection of men for election would also be diminishing to God's Sovereignty. Leaving the election of men to Chance. You see if God selects some men individually for Salvation excluding most others this by default can only be done randomly and still maintain that God is no respecter of men. Yet Calvinist claim that men having the ability to choose who to worship and believe, is diminishing to God's Sovereignty.

    I don't believe that either position is damaging in any way to God's Sovereignty. In fact I believe that one of these theories have to be true. Which one? I've been studying the pro's and con's of free choice and I have to tell you there is a lot more that supports the free agency of men than there is that supports the Calvinist point of view.

    Calvinism to me appears to be a combination of some scripture and what men have said about scripture. Both having equal influence. In some cases men having much more influence than God's word. Maybe Calvinist just don't realize they have minds of there own and can think just as Calvin and Augustine did. How ever it appears that most do not want to think to much. They would much rather rely on what dead men said than to read the Bible and understand it for them selves.

    That old Catholic Authority of the higher ups knowing more than the laymen is really ingrained in there thinking. They have no confidence that the Holy Spirit can use them just as mightily as He has anyone.

    I would hope that they would read this and ask them selves if a thing is established by the words of two or three witnesses. Then the more witnesses in the Bible the greater the truth. Then realize that relying on the witness of men dead 300 or 1700 years ago, aren't scripture and that the witnesses in God's word carries much more weight of the truth. The writers of these books in the Bible were inspired by God Him Self.
    Augustine wasn't inspired by God to write the Bible and neither was Calvin.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. rc

    rc
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    I luv light...

    My people perish for a lack of knowledge..

    That's the problem with Pelagian's.... (sorry you don't read historical figures... that's a guy who started your faith)...you show your ignorance by not understanding the historical causes of this debate. Arminian's clutch to Catholic scholars and man's secular philosophies, but you don't get that because you don't know history! You are showing me that from your posts. Was Luther arguing against the reformers? HMMM... no AGAINST the Catholics... You are on the side of the Catholics.. of course you can easily deny this because ignorance is bliss... whether it is right or not.. who cares? You still get to type posts and think your answers have weight...
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi RC;
    First of all RC I'm not a pelagain.
    This really cracks me up RC. It's funny you know every time I meet a Calvinist who can't back up there own theology by them selves. They always resort to attacking those with whom they disagree, personally. Rest assured my friend it all runs off me like water off a ducks back. I have Jesus Christ in my heart and no matter what you think of me. It just doesn't phase me. I'm still going to tell the truth. I'm still going to do His will and I hope you will eventually listen. Even if you don't at least I know I'm doing what I'm suppose to.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  20. Ray Berrian

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    ILUVLIGHT,

    I think some on the board want you to study historical men who have tried on their abilites at interpreting Scripture.

    From my reading your posts I believe you are honestly interpreting the Word, with little to no bias. If you want to preach a pure Gospel you are going to have to continue what you are doing. Study the words of Christ straight from the N.T. and not what some newly converted Catholics had to say about Jesus' words of truth and life.

    You are 'light years' closer to the truth than many here, who merely repeat the montra that they think is pure truth.

    Keep in the Word and you and I will not err in understanding even if some name call, saying, Pelagian or Arminian. The Lord did not say study the fathers of the faith, but He did say, 'Study to show yourself approved unto God . . . ' plus He said to study the Word. [II Peter 1:20]
     

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