Is Grace Conditional?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TCGreek, Aug 20, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

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    1. Today, I read somewhere that the grace that Noah found in Genesis 6:8 was conditional. The writer was "able" to prove that grace was conditional by going to Hebrews 11:7, where it says "By faith..."

    2. The writer combined Gen.6:8 and Hebrews 11:7 to "prove" that grace is conditional.

    3. I couldn't believe what I was reading. Immediately texts on grace began to flood by mind.
     
    #1 TCGreek, Aug 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2007
  2. Dale-c

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    I was a little shocked myself. BUt I have come to expect that. The BIble is so clear to the contrary and yet some refuse to believe.
     
  3. npetreley

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    How can unmerited favor be given on condition of merit?
     
  4. Amy.G

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    While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    I don't see any conditions there.
     
  5. JustChristian

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    Jesus says something different in these passages.

    Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

    Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

    Is Jesus saying that we have to give up something in order to be saved? Of course. We have to give up our former sinful ways and follow him/pick up our cross/give up whatever worldly things we put above Him/obey His commandments.
     
  6. Allan

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    WHile I agree without question that Grace is not conditioned, I was a few weeks back brought up short by a verse in my quiet time which I have read numerous times but never really took notice of it I guess.

    James 4:6 and 1 Peter 5:5 which has the phrase "God resistes the proud but gives grace to the humble"

    The context in both (IMO) is speaking to believers, but I confess I am somewhat confused at this, since by all accounts 'Grace' is unmeritted favor, yet here it seems grace can be something given based also upon condition.

    Thoughts?? Cause it would help. Truth is I haven't really studied it out due to time restaints and based on what I know it isn't that big a deal but what do you all think (since this is relating to the OP as well)
     
  7. TCGreek

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    Allan, this is a good observation. Here are my thoughts on the text:

    1. Since the addressees are already saved, this is not a case of Eph. 2:8.

    2. I see this, however, as God's favor to continue in his service and we combat the devil (v.7).

    3. A similar situation is 2 Cor 12:7-10, where Paul had prayed three times for God to remove the thorn in the flesh, but God said His grace is sufficient and power is perfected in weakness. Our weakness and humility allows us to be conduits of God's grace.
     
    #7 TCGreek, Aug 20, 2007
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  8. Allan

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    Not side stepping what you wrote but would it be a fair assumption that in the verses of James and 1 Peter that the grace referenced there appears contengent upon those of a humble heart or service.

    I am trying to word this carefully because I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression I think grace IS contengent upon something, for I do not. But by all accounts I must admit, when it states "God gives grace - to the humble" it strikes a wrong nerve in my understanding.

    But let me ask it this way and see if you agree or not.
    Do you think that though grace is not something meritted it also can not be given unless there is a proper attitude from the one to whom reception is intended. Not that attitude is the condition but that the attitude personifies the work of grace?

    Editted in - > Without the right attitude Grace is meaningless.
     
  9. TCGreek

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    1. Yes, James clearly says that the humble receives the grace in contrast to the proud who did not receive the grace.

    2. But this is not salvation grace, as in Eph. 2:8, 9. Rather, it is the grace to submit to God and resist the devil. V. 7 begins with the Greek conjunction oun, "therefore," signifying a conclusion drawn.

    3. Saving grace is not contingent on anything in us.
     
  10. Allan

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    As I previously stated, and again confirm - I agree with you.

    However, Grace is still Grace. (Editted in) Unmeritted favor is still unmeritted favor (that was what I was meaning to say :)
    And as I also stated, I have not really studied out the matter specific to this, but spit balling thoughts. Thanks for the interaction.
     
  11. donnA

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    If there were conditions to grace, it by defination woud no longer be grace, but earned wages. And I don't see God being obgliated to anyone.
     
  12. Tom Butler

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    Since we're brainstorming here, let me throw out this idea.

    When we think about God's grace in salvation, we understand that God extended His grace in the form of salvation. When we talking about being recipients of God's grace, we actually are talking about the salvation which comes as the result of God's grace. When we talk about being blessed, we're talking about the result of one of God's qualities--graciousness. Graciousness which manifests itself in the favor he shows.

    Now, when Peter speaks of giving grace to the humble, is it possible that he is referring to that quality which is connected to humility--grace? We who are the objects of God's grace (in salvation, and in favor in other ways), understand that we did not deserve it, and have no reason to be proud. Thus, God gives us the quality of grace, so it may be extended to others who do not deserve it but desperately need it.

    The words grace and graciousness have the same root. Graciousness is what the humble have, and grace is what they give to others, just as they were given it by God.

    I'm not sure of my ground here, it's just something that crossed my mind while reading the posts.
     
  13. TCGreek

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    1. An interesting observation. But herein lies the problem: We are humbled by God's initial work of grace in salvation, but what does James or Peter mean that God resists the proud.

    2. Are the proud those who ahve forgotten that they were once humbled by grace? How do we account for some being proud and thereby, missing a dimension of God's grace and graciousness?
     
  14. JustChristian

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    Most self-proclaimed Christians prefer to ignore the clear teaching in the Bible about the cost of decipleship. In reality, this is the cost of salvation.

    Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
    Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
    Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
    Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
    Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
    Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:34 Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
     
  15. Berean

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    I see "teaching" as done in most churches in three (3) different modes or styles.
    #1 THE LECTURER: This is merely as the name implies dialog with little if any feedback.
    #2 THE MODERATOR: This is an open exchange of interpretations of scripture and exchange of ideas. This is probably used by the majority of SS Teachers and certainly the most dangerous.
    #3 THE TEACHER: This is probably the least used and the most effective. It is lecturing with controlled feedback and must correct any non-scriptural dialog interjected into the discussion.
     
  16. belvedere

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    If there is a cost of salvation, then the whole concept of grace is thrown out the window.

    Jeff
     
  17. Tom Butler

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    Good points. As I said, I'm not sure of my ground here, just throwing out an idea.

    And it's a good question, are the proud those who have been once humbled by God's grace? That's a good possibility. Listen carefully the next time you hear somebody give a personal testimony. Odds are it will be liberally sprinkled with a lot of "I did this then God did this."

    We find that pastors of large churches are primarily identified by the size of their congregations, and the rate of their growth. Is there not an element of pride at work here? Not in all cases, of course, but I'm just wondering.
     
  18. TCGreek

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    1. That is so true.

    2. It's sometime difficult to measure, but at other times, it's blatantly obvious.
     
  19. JustChristian

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    No, just the prevailing concept which is that salvation does not involve a cost. Grace is freely given but the consequence of accepting grace is a changed life with Christ as our Lord. This is Jesus speaking. Does anyone want to listen?

    Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
    Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have [sufficient] to finish [it]?
    Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish [it], all that behold [it] begin to mock him,
    Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
    Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
    Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
    Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
     
  20. saturneptune

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    I could be way off base here, but does God resist grace from the proud, does that mean proud as in proud most of the time, self centered most of the time, showing no Christ like progress.

    There is no doubt that Christians are proud from time to time (sin), but it is not a predominate life style. Is Peter and James talking about proud as in not being saved?

    Grace like repentence is a gift of God.
     

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