Is grace "given" or is it "offered"?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by AresMan, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
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    I remember seeing a statement to this effect somewhere on this forum. I tried to search for it but could not find it. I don't remember who said it, but unbeknownst to that person, this phrase was to me the briefest and most profound representation of the main difference between Calvinism and Arminianism. Is grace "given" or is it "offered"? Is grace defined in the act of Jesus' death on the Cross, or is it defined in the act of a person receiving the free gift? The difference may seem subtle, yet distinguishable. Is the death of Christ grace, or is the "faith" of the believer grace?
     
  2. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    AresMan,

    For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him , but also to suffer for His sake

    And I am sure that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on that day when Christ Jesus comes back again.

    What makes you better than anyone else? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if all you have is from God, why boast as though you have accomplished something on your own?

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of God–not by works, so that no one can boast.

    Hope those are helpful.

    God bless
     
  3. AresMan

    AresMan
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    Does "granted" (given KJV) [Gk. charizomai) mean "imputed" or in a sense "up for grabs"? I looked up the word in my Strongs, and it means "forgive, deliver, grant, give freely" but also "to show one's self gracious, kind, benevolent." I'm still not quite sure myself how one can be dogmatic one way over the other.

    Here is the full context of Philippians 1:29:

    Paul seems to be emphasizing here that the "given" has mainly to do with the suffering for His sake. Because of the persecution in that area, these people were "given" by God the role of suffering for Christ and not to just be believers.
     
  4. whetstone

    whetstone
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    Grace is given.

    Psa 84:11 For the LORD God [is] a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good [thing] will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

    Pro 3:34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly.

    Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

    Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;

    Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

    1Cr 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

    1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

    1Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

    Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

    Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

    Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

    1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:

    1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

    Times grace is simply offered? zero.
     
  5. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    AresMan,

    Paul was writing to them about both being granted belief and suffering....

    For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

    For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him , but also to suffer for His sake

    Paul is clearly showing them that not only is their belief in Jesus Christ a grant from God.....so also is their suffering. It is not for their sake but His.

    The word grace itself is a word that is based on pure charity. It's meaning in regard to salvation always shows God in the active, and people in the passive sense.

    The passage (believe it or not) shows that believing as well as suffering are both gifts bestowed from God.

    The receiving is not as most people vision. Grace from God is received passivly because we as people simply can't make God do anything He is not willing to do.

    Their suffering as well as their believing were received by them. God is and was the cause of it all even though He uses men to bring about preaching and spreading further what is preached.

    A better way to vision the grace of God is to picture a car accident where the people are knocked unconscience. To the rescue come paramedics. The paramedics work and revive those that were on their way to certain death. Those that were knocked unconscience received grace even though they had no ability to ask for it. They received mercy because others were merciful.

    If my the few verses I posted are not clear enough.....the ones whetstone posted are.

    God bless. KJB
     
  6. philg

    philg
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    Grant (5483) means to show a favor or kindness. 1st I would ask what is the basis for the granting?? Where you would say it is unconditional I would say that it is based on faith

    Now as I understand it this passage is supposed to support the fact that believing is a gift only to the elect. However look at acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    If belief is given in phil 1:29 the same way it is given in acts 5:31 then all of Israel is saved. we know this is not true. What was given was an opportunity to be saved. Also see acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Again are all the gentiles saved?
     
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello philg.
    All of Israel are saved that's exactly right. :cool:
    ...For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. There are two Israels one of which is saved in total.
    It's the children of the promise that are Israel. Not that done by the will of man but by God. John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. :cool:


    john.
     
  8. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello AresMan.

    Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. We were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus. Past tense. :cool: And since we were reconciled at that time it would mean that all are saved or an elect are but that they are saved for sure is definite. :cool:

    So the unmerited favour of God is in His death for those He chose before the creation of the world and He gives us the faith we need to become the children of God at a time of His choosing. Grace from first to last.

    john.
     
  9. philg

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    All of Israel are saved that's exactly right. :cool:
    ...For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. There are two Israels one of which is saved in total.
    It's the children of the promise that are Israel. Not that done by the will of man but by God. John 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. :cool:


    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Acts 5:31 is talking about the nation of Israel.
    The Gentiles are granted repentence in Acts 11:18

    So the question remains " Is belief given in Phil 1:29 the same way that it is given in Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18?
     
  10. timothy27

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    Grace is only grace if it is given. You give someone your grace, you do not offer it to them. If someone has wronged me I have to give them my good grace for them to be okay with me again. I do not offer it to them with the hope that they will accept. We wronged God, he must give us His grace on His terms not ours.
     
  11. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello philg.
    AC 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
    As I said Jesus died for His people only and they are the Israel of Israel. A chosen nation. But it is Jesus that gives repentance to Israel, He gives. Since He gives it to Israel, a gift, then all Israel will be saved.

    Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." You see it says He will save them. He does not say He will enable them to save themselves or that it is a cooperative venture. His people will be... not might be saved.
    God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior... Saviour means Saviour.
    I know it gets messy but most of the true Israelites must be Gentiles. We are grafted into the natural and we are Abraham's Children.
    JN 8:39 "Abraham is our father," they answered.
    "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does."
    "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

    They are Israelites yet were not through Isaac but Ishmael: Outcasts, outlaws and outsiders.

    Rom 9:7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

    RO 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. :cool:

    My Father is Abraham and you can't get much more Jewish than that.
    By grace.

    john.
     
  12. philg

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    AC 5:29 Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
    As I said Jesus died for His people only and they are the Israel of Israel. A chosen nation. But it is Jesus that gives repentance to Israel, He gives. Since He gives it to Israel, a gift, then all Israel will be saved.

    Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." You see it says He will save them. He does not say He will enable them to save themselves or that it is a cooperative venture. His people will be... not might be saved.
    God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior... Saviour means Saviour.
    I know it gets messy but most of the true Israelites must be Gentiles. We are grafted into the natural and we are Abraham's Children.
    JN 8:39 "Abraham is our father," they answered.
    "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does."
    "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

    They are Israelites yet were not through Isaac but Ishmael: Outcasts, outlaws and outsiders.

    Rom 9:7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

    RO 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. :cool:

    My Father is Abraham and you can't get much more Jewish than that.
    By grace.

    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are missing the whole point. The whole nation of Israel is not saved and all the Gentiles are not saved therefore what was given was the opprtunity to repent the same as was given in Phil 1:29
     
  13. King James Bond

    King James Bond
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    philg,

    Israel, and those not of Israel are all granted repentance.

    It is not about an opportunity to repent.

    Philippians is a letter written to an intended audience;

    Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

    Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

    When I do the math it always adds up that He who has begun the good work, is also the One that finishes the good work.

    So if anyone thinks it is the work of men to repent, believe, continue in strength, build faith, or yada yada.....I simply never will agree.

    Those that God has willed to save by His will, will be saved.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    That applies to Jews and non-Jews.

    God bless. KJB
     
  14. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Hello philg.
    Ok. :cool:

    john.
     

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