Is having many Children a blessing or not?

That wasn't my point, and yes, I agree with your assertion because not using birth control is not the same thing as saying, "Have as many as you can."

That's the fallacy that keeps getting bantered around. The Bible doesn't say have as many as you can, but it does say, trust me to provide for all of your needs. Trusting God in the area of reproduction DOES NOT MEAN that you will have alot of kids.

Just ask those who don't use birth control and never get pregnant.

 

No one diagrees with that. The issue of contention is with those who claim that use of birth control equals not trusting God to provide for all your needs. That's simply scripturally false.

That's a pretty mistaken notion. Birth controls are almost as old as births themselves. They ranged from ingested herb concoctions to potions and cremes that were inserted into the birth canal prior to coitus.

 

You're implying that engaging in any type of family planning is not trusting God. If you can't see how that's prideful, I simply don't know what to say.

Again, I will say it until it starts to sink in. How a family is managed is strictly between the husband, the wife, the Lord, and NOBODY ELSE. But some here are clearly trying to assert themselves into that equation. No Christian has the scriptural right, duty, or privilege to tell married persons how many children they should or should not have, or how they should go about concieving those children.

Those here who are doing so are guilty of nothing less that unrighteous judgement and abuse of scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]That's not true John. For you, it is husband, wife, Lord, and doctor who prescribes birth control pills or diaphram, or pharmacist who sells condoms. So John, if it really was just between husband, wife, and Lord, the only method to avoiding conception would be abstinence during ovulation.

Something that 1 Corinthians 7 may be hinting at, but there is no way of knowing for sure. Is it ok for a couple to abstain during fertile times? Yes.

But what happens in real life is that the couple eventually just learns to trust God and stops worrying about getting pregnant. Then married life becomes great, really great!

 

No one diagrees with that. The issue of contention is with those who claim that use of birth control equals not trusting God to provide for all your needs. That's simply scripturally false.

That's a pretty mistaken notion. Birth controls are almost as old as births themselves. They ranged from ingested herb concoctions to potions and cremes that were inserted into the birth canal prior to coitus. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I know that. But we are talking about modern birth control methods.

The ancient birth potions fall into the category of pharmakeia mentioned in Revelation, always in the context of sexual immorality, murder and idololatres (hedonism - lovers of pleasure).

I don't think God is pleased with the use of pharmakeia for the purpose of causing abortions because one loves sexual pleasure so much that he or she practices immorality. Kind of describes today, doesn't it?

 

Says who? The topic has continually been birth control in general. Condom-type devices are thousands of years old (and do not fall into the scriptural definition of pharmakia), so, by your reckoning, you would then have to at least say that condoms are okay for the Christian.

That's a complete misuse of the scriptural understanding of trusting in the Lord to supply your needs. If we trusted in the Lord to your extreme, then we should not be planting farms, because we're to trust in the Lord, not farmers. If we trusted in the Lord to supply our needs, we should have no need of doctors when we become ill. We should trust in the Lord for our financial needs, not our jobs. We should trust in the Lord for transportation, not the auto or airline industry.

Sorry, but God has given us cars, planes, hospitals, grocery stores, and yes, birth control. There comes a point when trusting in the Lord becomes testing the Lord. And Christ expressly forbids us from testing the Lord our God.

It's as scripturally presumptuous for a person to say that married persons may not use birth control as it is to say married persons may not engage in, say, oral sex or foreplay. And yes, there are folks out there who will make such a ridiculous and unscriptural claim.

 

The real question is "is having many teenagers really a blessing"?

 

I have two. Do you really want me to answer that?

Now, when our children have teens of their own, that is not only a blessing, it's incredibly rewarding payback.

 

Ah, so the physician and bioethicist are "in," but the theologian/pastor is "out."

You said NNE is allowed to meddle in your private reproductive affairs, but what you really mean is "no pastor is allowed to meddle in what you believe."

 

God cleary told us in the Bible to "work." Adam was told to manage the garden. The result of sin made work difficult. The result of sin made giving birth painful.

Your analogy is off target, because God already told us to plant fields, harvest fields, etc.

 

Come to think of it, he has already told us to be fruitful and multiply!

 

Actually, that proves my point that making use of our God-given abilities and intelligence does not violate the scriptural instruction of trusting God. Hence, when a couple manages their family size, they are not violating the scriptural instruction of trusting God.

Whether a couple has ten kids or one kid, they're being fruitful and are multiplying. However, scripture never states that not multiplying is a grievance against God. No where is this a scripturally supportable notion. And, as you should know, the command of being fruitful and multiplying was needed to follow God's instructions to populate the earth. In this day when humankind numbers in the billions and is in every corner of the earth, the mandate to populate the earth has been successfully fulfilled.

 

The assumption by some is that, after prayer and bible study, if a couple chooses to limit the size of their family - they are ignoring God.

On the contrary, they may be the ones who are most listening to God. When I was young, I really wanted at least four children, maybe eight. However, we prayed and prayed and prayed, and felt God telling us to "wait" to have children. So I used birth control. Then my cancer was discovered. (No, no connection you suspcious minded people. I used a barrior method not the pill).

After we got through that trauma - our first child was conceived. A precious, beautiful daughter.

I had hoped my children would be 2 or 3 years apart. So when my daugher was a little over one, we prayed about it. Again - we felt we needed to wait. So we did. Certain other crisis events in our lives made us grateful that we did.

Our son was born six years after his sister.

I wanted more children. We prayed, and we felt we should wait. Another cancer was discovered.

I believe, with all my heart, that had we ignored the voice of God saying, "not now," we would have made a terrible mess of things.

Listening to God doesn't necessarily mean, "unprotected sex." Listening to God may MEAN "use birth control" today.

 

I was never taught it was the pastor's job to meddle in the affairs of the people. I completely missed out over 50 odd years. Think of all the pleasure I missed; bossing people about.

Also, "trust in the Lord" is bantered about so freely it becomes a senseless expression. The Lord does get blamed for a lot of things.

As I have said before, I only walk on water when I know where the stones are. It is not a question of trusting in the Lord, but employing good common sense that humans sink in water when unsupported. That's why we invented boats and bridges.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Texas, you trusted and you obeyed. There is NNE who can fault you for that. I don't think that is the average situation, though, where choosing to limit a family is concerned. I am very grateful for your testimony, though, as many people who pray then forget to listen for the answer. God bless you. And yours!

In my case, I trusted my doctors over and above God and paid dearly for it. Many trust their own intellect over and above God . This is what I was trying to argue against. I came on pretty strong, and I apologize for that. I do feel strongly, though, about this life and death thing. For instance, every single one of my six "should" have been aborted according to both doctors and the standards of today. I even had a psychiatrist ask me if I had ever considered putting our profoundly retarded son to sleep -- and yes, it can be done very quietly and declared death from natural causes. I popped my cork royally at him. (The psychiatrist was the house psychiatrist in an institution where one of my sons was placed after he was arrested for some junk, and I was there during a counselling session with him.)

Your case, Texas, was most unusual and totally wonderful in that you did listen to the Lord. Again, God bless you for that.

But the VAST majority of couples I know who choose to limit the size of their families do so for the sake of their own convenience and finances. The fact is, that children are never 'convenient' and you can never 'afford' one. Nevertheless, they are incredible blessings in their own crazy ways. And one of the joys, for me, has been when my adult children have moved from being my 'kids' to my friends and siblings in Christ. That is an incredible joy. It doesn't happen with all kids and it hasn't happened with all of mine, but when it does happen it makes everything else worthwhile.

I am still convinced that God knows what He is doing regarding conception. There is not a person on this earth born that God looks and says, "Whoops! Where did that one come from?" Each is precious. Each is intentional where He is concerned. Each is a blessing.

You listened to God tell you what to do. That is a far cry from so many who try to tell God what to do!

 

Helen,

I understand how you must feel. Having trusted the doctors, and then suffered the way you did.

The key is not trusting man.

 

Whoa, I think that's HIGHLY subjective and presumptuous. It's my observation that the majority of Christian couples seek private and prayerful guidance in private issues, including birth control. Those are highly private issues, and just because a couple does not share such a private thing publicly does not mean that their decision wasn't reached after prayerfully seeking God's guideance in the matter.

If that were really true, then those couples you know would never had kids in the first place. The truth is that all those families have EXACTLY the number of children God wants them to have at this moment. And for all we know, God cares about the balance of finances and suitableness of time and quantity. Since finances and time are blessings from God, why do we think that taking these into consideration is somehow disobeying God.

Again, the whole notion of foridding Christian couples from managing their families stinks of self-righteousness.

 

I'm not in a position to forbid anyone anything. And you are sounding awfully defensive! So as far as I am concerned, this subject is finished. I've said what I believe and why and that is all a forum is for. It's not for slugging it out, John. You do the best you can, and so do we.

 

Defensive? Yes, I do attempt to defend Christians from false scriptural implications. The implication that use of birth control is wrong is a false scriptural implication. Period.

 

Actually some forums are for slugging it out, otherwise they wouldn't be any fun!

 

Jim, I enjoy your posts. God bless ya.

It's funny this topic has come up...I was just thinking about this recently. I have worried that I would not be able to care for my children when and if I have them...so I figured we'd use some kind of birth control. But I want to trust God that He will reward me with the number of kids I can handle and will not give any more than that.