Is Heaven and the New Jerusalem the same?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by richard n koustas, Apr 24, 2005.

  1. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Please support your answer with scipture. thanks.
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    The New Jerusalem and the Church are the same thing. Rev. 21:9-10
     
  3. PastorGreg

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    Using your logic, the woman and the beasts of the field are the same thing. Gen. 2:18,19. Did you ever think that maybe the bride was in the city?

    To the original question - No. Heaven and the New Jerusalem are not the same thing. The verses given above tell us that the New Jerusalem comes OUT OF heaven.
     
  4. dianetavegia

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    Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

    Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

    Revelation 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    Did you ever think to read the passage? [​IMG]

    9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    According to you I guess the angel never got around to showing John the lamb's wife, because he continues on describing this city.

    Where is the Bride? Why doesn't John tell us of the Bride? Did John get distracted?


    Gal 4:22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
    24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Hebrews 12: 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Eph 2: 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
     
  6. PastorGreg

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    How in the world do you make all the descriptions in the chapter fit the church? Seems easier to just take the Scripture for what it says.
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Because it symbolism. Is the church's foundation the teachings of the apostles? Wouldn't the high wall indicate safety and security to the hebrew mind? Many of the precious stones are found in Ex 28:17-20. The gates are how to enter the city and are named after the 12 tribes show that salvation is of the Jews. Its diminsions are like those of I Kings 6:20 describing the tabernacle.


    I take scripture for what it says, you seem to dismiss what John records. Where is the Bride the angel was going to show John? Did the angel decide to show him the New Jerusalem instead? What does scripture say about this?

    Who are those that Rev 22:15 speaks of that can enter the city?(vs.17)
     
  8. PastorGreg

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    Because it symbolism. Is the church's foundation the teachings of the apostles? Wouldn't the high wall indicate safety and security to the hebrew mind? Many of the precious stones are found in Ex 28:17-20. The gates are how to enter the city and are named after the 12 tribes show that salvation is of the Jews. Its diminsions are like those of I Kings 6:20 describing the tabernacle.


    I take scripture for what it says, you seem to dismiss what John records. Where is the Bride the angel was going to show John? Did the angel decide to show him the New Jerusalem instead? What does scripture say about this?

    Who are those that Rev 22:15 speaks of that can enter the city?(vs.17)
    </font>[/QUOTE]Again, since the bride is people and the city is a city, perhaps the bride is in the city. 22:15 speaks only of those who cannot enter the city, so I'm not sure what your question is there.
     
  9. PastorGreg

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    BTW, Grasshopper, the question of the thread was, "Are Heaven and the New Jerusalem the same?" Evidently we agree that they are not.
     
  10. richard n koustas

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    So, the streets of gold and the tree of life and the pearly gates, etc. are the new city and not heaven. correct?
     
  11. exscentric

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    Street of Gold :)
     
  12. richard n koustas

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    I stand corrected... ;)
     
  13. Grasshopper

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    In my opinion, correct.
     
  14. PastorGreg

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  15. James_Newman

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    The bride is the city, adorned with the righteousness of the saints (rev 19:8). The saints being those who are worthy to reign with Christ. Christ is the second Adam. Just as Adam's bride was taken out of his body, Christ's 'bride' will be taken out of His 'body'.
     
  16. covenant

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    GREAT SYMBOLISM POINT, NEWMAN!

    [​IMG]
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    As to the first question:

    I think the scriptures are clear that the New Jerusalem is contained in heaven, and comes down from heaven, and is not equivalent to heaven, although it may be the center point of heaven.

    I actually agree here with Grasshopper that the New Jerusalem is the Church - it is also the Bride, the Lamb's wife.

    But he will not like why I agree with him, because I believe the church is made up of believers of all ages, from Adam to the last person that will believe.

    No where in the New Testament does it say the Old Testament Saints are part of a seperate body from us who have the the New Testament revealed to us.


    I think it is interesting that how the city is built:

    Here we see more of this city - that was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets" and the twelve tribes of Israel on the gates. What could be a better picture of the two being one?

    IFBReformer
    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Israel_Church.aspx
     
  18. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    Do you think that Jesus is referring to the New Jerusalem in John 14 ?

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2
     
  19. IfbReformer

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    Do you think that Jesus is referring to the New Jerusalem in John 14 ?

    In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. John 14:2
    </font>[/QUOTE]Yes.

    Again since the New Jerusalem is contained in heaven, the two can seem to be synonmous at times but Revelation makes it clear they are not.

    It would be like me saying I was going to Europe when I am going to go to Germany. I know am going to Germany, but I may just say I am going to Europe as Germany is contained in Europe.

    IFBReformer
     
  20. covenant

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    An even more interesting question is whether or not the "resurrected saints" of Matthew 27 are already in the "holy city, the New Jerusalem" or not. If one sees them in the holy city, the New Jerusalem, it poses a dilemma for dispensationalist that believe that the first resurrection will put the OT resurrected bodies on earth for 1,000 years to reign with Christ in an earthly kingdom.
    [​IMG] --- [​IMG] --- [​IMG] --- [​IMG] --- [​IMG] --- [​IMG] --- [​IMG]

    [ April 27, 2005, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: covenant ]
     

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