Is Hell, Eternal Torture?

Alright,

First of all I don't think I could ever run out of support for the orthodox doctrine of Hell. There are more Christians who support it than your view of annihilation and it is a theory that is relatively new, as it has never been embraced in historic Christianity. There is a reason why. It is because annihilationism is false. Additionally I work at night, so it often takes me a while to be able to post. I am writing this at 3am right now. Also, this is not new info to me and I am most certainly not the confused one. I actually held to conditionalism (a type of annihilationism) for a while until I started to see how the Bible treats the subject of hell and I straightened out my doctrine of man. It became clear that annihilationism was lacking and tended to be more of an emotional argument than a rational/exegetical one. A fine example of this is Audra's question in the forum regarding how God could be so cruel as to punish eternally. I am wondering how we can be so wicked as to sin against a holy God who suffered and died to pay for the sin of His people! But on to the exegesis.

1. Your use of apollumi is an exegetical fallacy. See Exegetical Fallacies by D.A. Carson. You have required that the word mean the same thing in every context. That is a fallacy of overgeneralization. The word is fluid, meaning different things in different contexts. You have not taken this into account.

2. Apollumi is not the end description of hell. Jesus uses other words and some metaphors to describe hell as well. Simply because he uses that word which means "death," "loss" or "suffering" in other contexts does not mean that he does not seek to use it to mean eternal conscious torment.

3. There are seveal texts that point to hell being an eternal place of punishment.
Mark 9:43-48 (cf. Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17)
43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

Here the fire is unquenchable. It also is said to be eternal in the parallel passages. So the fire in hell will never go out. Hell is meant to be everlasting. Now one could say, yes, that is true, but no one will be there. But vv.46,48 state that "their worm does not die." The their points to those who are being cast into hell. The image here is of continual punishment. And finally in v.49 there is a "for." The Greek "gar" meaning "for" suggests a reason for the worm dying not and the fire being unquenchable. It is because all in their will be salted with fire. Some would suggest that this verse goes with v.49, but the image of fire and the postpositive "gar" suggests it should remain with the previous thought and the salt analogy breaks off from it to begin a second thought in which Jesus warns His followers lest they fall into the fire themselves because they do not fulfill the purpose of salvation (being salt).

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Here Jesus is crealy talking about Hell. He again says that the fire is eternal and it has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Why has eternal fire been prepared for these? Because eternal fire will be used for them eternally. Then the real kicker. He parallels eternal life and eternal "punishment." The word there is not apollumi, but rather kolasis meaning punishment or correction. The word comes from the verb kolazo meaning "to prune" or "mutilate" and the noun is restricted to usage directed at the punished. So the person punished is eternally punished, just as the person who receives life receives it eternally. This is a difficult verse to explain away and may be the strongest case for the traditional view. Leon Morris (a NT scholar) says, "It is not easy to see the fate of the wicked as anything les permanent than that of the believer." Also this is later referenced in Revelation 20:10 when the final judgement is explained.

Luke 16:19-31
I will not quote this one, but you can look it up. Here Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man. This is very unlike the other stories Jesus told (all of which were logically possible -- Jesus never told a story that was not hypothetical, for this to be flat out impossible then it would be the only one). Here Jesus names one of the main character's in the story. The rich man is suffering in the unquenchable fire and Lazarus is in Abraham's bosom. Now it could be that no one was in heaven until after Christ's death or Jesus is using Hades to mean the afterlife in general. No matter what, this story illustrates conscious suffering for sin. Why would Jesus have told such a story if He did not seek to show the Pharisees what would happen to them if they did not repent and quit seeking riches?

Other passages could be brought in including Matt. 26:24 and Luke 17:2 which indicate very bad things will happen to Judas and those who cause little ones to stumble. If one is annihilated, how bad can that be. Do you remember any pain you suffered before you were born from your non-existence? How about any discomfort? Regret? If you want to talk about fair and unfair, then how fair would it be for Hitler to rise to judgement and hear God say, "for your heinous crimes against Me and My people you will forever suffer non-existence." If I were Hitler, I would be thrilled! Whoopi, I don't have to suffer for what I have done, I just don't get to have what they get! How ridiculous is that?! All Christ did was save us from non-existence?

4. I will quote a few with no commentary that seem to speak for themselves.

Romans 2:6-8
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Jude 11-13
11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Rev 14:10-11
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 20:10
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:15
15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Sorry to the moderators and others for the length, but I believe heterodoxy deserves a full rebuke and treatment from Scripture. I hope that this will lead you to the true RIGHT WAY.

D.R.

 

Ok Audra,

I will answer you now. Those texts are fundamentally different. Hermeneutically, they represent two different types of speaking. God in Genesis is using a metaphor to describe the knowledge that He has about the death of Abel. In Revelation, John is recording what is going on before him. He sees the martyrs under the altar. He is not attempting to use metaphor to describe the event. Notice Revelation 1:19. The angel tells him to "Therefore write the things which you have SEEN, and the things which ARE, and the things which WILL TAKE PLACE after these things." That is what John records regarding Rev.6. So they are two different passages and can't be lumped together as one way of explaining away the truthfulness of the text.

D.R.

 

Hell is temporary abode of the reprobate.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

all who are in death and in hell are taken out of and judged before the great white throne judgement.

all references to "outer darkness" is referencing to outside the city walls. or outside the outer court walls (of the tabernacle and temple)

to become a reprobate and find yourself in outer darkness would be someone violating Gods rules concerning sanctification and attempting to enter into the sanctuary of the tabernacle.

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Lev 10:4 And Moses called Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Uzziel the uncle of Aaron, and said unto them, Come near, carry your brethren from before the sanctuary out of the camp.
Lev 10:5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.

the tabernacle gives us many clue. the tabernacle represents the kingdom of God whereas the outer court represents the kingdom of heaven. outside the camp (death) can be considered hell.

there is also a reference to the valley of hinnon or gehenna as a garbage dump outside the city walls of jerusalem. also where false worshippers sacrificed their children.

 

There is a real problem here when we try to explain eternity. We can't. Man cannot in his finite mind understand something as infinite as eternity. I understand the discussion here is on whether Hell will last for an eternity or if those judged souls will cease to exist. Well the Bible is pretty clear about hell lasting forever. If hell has a finite end it would seem that heaven would as well.

But here is the problem, we cannot understand eternity. I have heard all the illustrations like, "If a bird takes one grain of sand and flies to the moon and back he would empty the beaches of the earth and eternity would have just begun." OK, that would take a long time, but we are not talking about a long time, we are talking about eternity.

The heart of the problem I think goes back to our understanding of time. Here I am leaning to my engineering training over my theological training but Einstein showed us that time passes at a rate that is only constant for the frame of reference we are in. As our relative speeds change so does the rate at which time passes. If we were to approach the speed of light the rate of time passage would slow down. This has been proven experimentally. If we could actually go the speed of light time would theoretically come to a stop. Now remember that God is described in the Bible as light. It is possible for something to last both an instant and an eternity the time just has to be measured from different reference points.

I know that this is a little deep and theoretical but the bottom line is God is not bound by time like we are. This also relates to the question of how Christ could pay for my sins in a few hours when it would take me all of eternity in hell. He is not bound by time like we are. And someday, neither will we.

 

Again Me2 you have made no sense and you just seem to ramble on with no real point.

Tentmaker, I realize that there is some difficulty in explaining eternity, but it seems to be related to everlasting. And there seems to be no necessity in our passing on of us being outside of time. I agree that time is a construct, but so is the body. God has determined that we will have a glorified body as Christ does. He dwelt on earth after this state and was bound in time. Before the Fall man was in this state, hence it seems logical that we would return to that same state, within time. Also eternity in the Greek was incomplete, but was a form of time measure meaning "ages upon ages." This signals more of an idea of everlasting, which is a time concept. Hope this helps,

D.R.

 

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

dead is taken from the sea..death..hell..

no dead people in the sea, death or hell. they are all standing in front of the throne. their works are being judged.

hell and death and the sea hold no souls. their realms are empty.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

and finally these realms are no longer needed. they no longer serve a purpose. Yes..death and hell are FINITE!!!! whoops did someone say then heaven has to be finite?? IT IS! the first heaven is filled with all spirits..good and bad. the bad is changed and a new heaven is created

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

If Christ contains the fullness of the Godhead.and Man has the mind of Christ. I see no problem with man comprehending Gods plans and ways. given the proper explanation.

Hell as well as death and heaven are finite.

all have a beginning, end, and finite purpose that will end.

Me2

 

HELL

http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/

 

Definitely John sees those things, I'm not disputing that. John also sees four horsemen and a dragon, does that means we'll see four horsemen and a dragon? I don't think so. And we won't see souls martyred either. How do you know for sure it isn't a metaphor just like the dragon?

 

Mark 9:43-48 (cf. Matthew 3:12; Luke 3:17)
43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
49 "For everyone will be salted with fire.

This is a metaphor as well. Does God want us to actually cut off our limbs, or pluck out our eyes? No, He's saying to stay away from things that lead us away from Him. Get rid of sin, not our body parts.
If we do not get rid of sin as much as possible, then we will be in Gehenna or the lake of fire and be burnt up, as the fire is not quenchable.
v. 49 We are all tested and have trials(salted with fire).

 

The story of Lazarus:

"Lu 16:22
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"
First of all, where is Abraham's bosom?
Hebrews 11:8- "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. .......v.13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, F52 embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
v.39And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."
"Joh 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. "
"
1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

So, Abraham is still dead, not in heaven or in hell (gehenna). He is in the grave (Hades). So, the rich man and Lazarus are in the grave.
"Lu 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
"Ec 9:5
For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten."
" Lu 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Why was he tormented?
" Lu 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."
"Lu 16:27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

First of all, Solomon directly says the dead know nothing. They can't talk, can't think, can't feel. So, this is a metaphor or just a plain story used to give a point.
The rich man went through his life, living the "good life" and never cared about obeying God, then when he got a chance to think (metaphorically speaking), his conscience got to him. The beggar on the other hand did the opposite. The rich man will be rewarded by burning up in the lake of fire. The beggar will be rewarded with eternal life.
Another point is made. If they will not hear Moses and the prophets (the bible), then even one raised from the dead and sent to them will not change them.

 

Agreed that those who turn away from God will be thrown into the lake of fire, but they will be burnt up completely.
"Rev 14:10-11
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
"Re 19:20
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."
"Re 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were cast, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The devil shall be tormented.

As for the people that worshipped and received the mark. Notice their smoke ascends upward, so they are tormented on earth.
"Re 9:18
By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed--by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths."

"Rev 21:8
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Agreed. They will be burnt up completely. There is no resurrection from the second death.

 

Yes, their smoke ascends upward "forever and ever." And the earth does not last 'forever and ever' but will be replaced; thus the smoke of their torment is not finite as is the present earth.

 

Annihilationalism is nothing but another gospel. It is so sad to see professing believers actually hold to this heresy.

 

Audra,

1. You have made Jesus statement metaphorical and it is not. It is hyperbolic. He is exaggerating, not being metaphoric. Look up metaphor in a dictionary. There are some who actually have done this. See Origen, the church father. Jesus point is that if you are not militant in your walk you will suffer punishment. You cannot make the two the same. That is not dealing with the reality that the fire is unquenchable and their worm does not die.

2. As for the Revelation of John, it must be understood that all things are not symbolic. Some things are. It comes down to why use symbolism at all. God showed John these things to paint a picture of reality. This reality was the current Roman empire which was depicted by the dragon and the emperor by the anti-Christ, et cetera, etc. The scenes in heaven are not symbolic, unless you want to say that the angels do not cry out day and night in praise to God and that they do not worship the Lamb.

3. Abraham's Bosom is the name given to the portion of Hades reserved for those who were the true children of God. Hence, Jesus is using this to point to the future reality of Hell. It may be that Hades is the place of the dead until Christ was raised and that all will remain there until the final resurrection. That is not the point of this discussion though and that does not have to be decided in order to affirm that the man is in conscious torment at the time. Also, for you to say because Soloman has said (which by the way you gave no reference to nor any exegesis of that text) and then say that means Jesus is just using a story is not to deal with the text at hand (i.e. Luke 16). Is Jesus lying to the Pharisees regarding this story? If it is completely untenable then why tell it? The point was to warn the Pharisees of their impending doom if they did not repent. How does this story accomplish that if it is not realistic? And again, why is this parable unlike all of the other ones Jesus told by being completely far-fetched and lacking in possible realness? Finally, you jumped from the text to your presuppositions being placed upon them. You said because Soloman said, then it couldn't be. Therefore, it must be a story. You are committing a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent. You are assuming your argument in order to make your argument. You have to prove it first. And then you moved to assuming that the rich man would be burned up in the lake of fire, without proving this is a possiblity. The verses from Matthew, Revelation, Jude, and Romans still stand as difficult passages for your position. I am still looking for solid exegesis (even though you have not yet provided it on the above texts) on those passages.

D.R.

 

First of all, I rely on the bible and allow the bible to speak for itself. "line upon line....".
Thank you Caissie.

Secondly, how do you know for sure that it isn't symbolic? You're just saying "I know it's not symbolic." You're giving no proof. I'm at least using the bible to back up itself.

Lastly, Abraham's bosom is not defined in the bible. Apparently you've got extrabiblical sources. Sorry, I don't fall for that. What we are told about Abraham is that he died, and is still dead in the ground, and has not ascended to heaven. He will ascend with the rest of us to meet Christ in the clouds at His final coming. That's what Hebrews 11 was saying.
It does matter where Abraham's bosom is, otherwise the context is messed up.
And do you dispute anything Solomon said? He was the wisest man on earth, and you say it doesn't matter?
Jesus is not lying. He's talking in a parable.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should F58 heal them.' F59 16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear; 17 for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it."

He talked in parables to make it hard to understand, not to make it easier to understand.

I used the verse in Eccl. because it was a plain statement. It should have been plain from his statement that dead men know nothing, therefore the rich man could not have known anything after death. Christ was telling a parable. If you can't see that, then I feel sorry for you. It's as plain as anything.

 

Very well put DD.
Also, there is nothing in Audra's profile that indicates, "Baptist." Isn't this a Baptist-only forum?

 

Ok Audra,

As for the Bible, we shouldn't interpret line for line, we should do it word for word.

1. As for Caissie's comment, it seems apparent that Jesus was being overly simplistic and yet hyperbolic. How do we know that? Well, His point was if you don't have eyes, you cannot lust after a woman you can't see. If you don't have hands, you cannot touch what you should not or steal from anyone. I think your application to that text is right on, but regardless He still is talking about the means by which we sin. We use our hands and our eyes and our mouths. Origen understood it like this. In fact, he picked up on the militancy of Jesus and castrated himself so he would not be able to fulfill his sinful lusts. Jesus was not trying to use a metaphor by making it symbolic of friends or anything else, He was illustrating militance in one's walk.

2. Don't talk about not giving evidence. I still haven't seen you quote the verse in Ecc. you are talking about. And this seems to be what your whole case is built upon.

3. I will concede my argument on the martyrs at this point. I do believe that the scenes in heaven are not symbolic, but this is not a major point and it is better to move on to more solid texts that teach eternal torture.

4. So Audra, do you not examine Greek word etymologies and arabic and aramaic word histories to understand how the word is used in context? Or for that matter you do disregard cultural research or even maps and markings and inscriptions, and secular histories of kings? All these things are extrabiblical, yet all are essential for understanding the Bible. Judaism is not limited to the OT. There is the Talmud and many, many other writings that give us insight into how the Jews viewed the afterlife. I don't care whether you "buy" it or not. The fact remains that the Jews understood Abraham's bosom to be the place of the dead that were true Israel. Go pick up a solid commentary and it will affirm this.

5. And if none are in heaven, then what was going on at the transfiguration? Were those illusions or were they really Moses and Elijah? Were the Biblical writers using a parable there too?

6. Quit using Soloman until you quote the verse you are talking about and explain the context. Otherwise it is an invalid argument.

7. Talking about not using evidence, you have not proven that this parable is untenable. As I explained earlier, parables are not impossible situations, but rather real scenarios that could occur. Give me one other than this (according to you) that could not happen. Go back and answer all my questions I asked you about the exegesis of this passage, not just the ones you can half-answer. You continue to dodge hard evidence. And you still haven't given an adequate response to the hardest texts I listed. You are going after the secondary ones because you can't explain away the others.

8. Don't feel sorry for me. I am defending solid Biblical orthodoxy. That puts me in a wonderful line of solid exegetes and Biblical scholars. I am glad to be there. I feel sorry that you have been taught this hermeneutically inconsistant and emotionally-driven trash. Where did you get this from? Greg Boyd? John Sanders? Clark Pinnock? Maybe John Hick?

9. Please don't write a response unless you are going to tackle the hard texts. We can debate these all day, but you stil haven't proven that my view is wrong. I said earlier that you were competing against 2000 years of orthodox church teaching on this subject. The burden of proof is upon you.

D.R.

 

Let me state a little common-sense logic approach.

If God were a loving God, he had to give man a choice to do what man wants to do. God does NOT force us to accept Him or His Son. If He forced us to love Him then it would be false love. Like that of a dictator. God wants man to love Him because He is our creator and He loves us. This is the reason He gave his Only Begotten Son to give us eternal life. Life with God in God's kingdom. Life would not be life apart from him, but life would exist as an eternal punishment as much from the seperation of God as the physical punishment.

Now, if God gives us a choice and we refuse to live a life that Jesus wants us to and we want to have nothing to do with Jesus and religion, then why would God force us to live with Him forever in perfect peace, harmony without sin.

If we do not want anything to do with God while we live on earth, then why would a loving God force us to live with Him and be perfect in the afterlife.

Hell is made for the Devil and his angels, an everlasting punishment. Man's soul was designed and created to live forever. Man's sin killed the body. Now if the man cannot be in God's created universe or heaven because he wants no part of it by accepting the Grace of Jesus Christ, then obviously his soul must remain forever in the "vault" God made where sin must be stored to seperate it from God. God and sin are not compatible, therefore God set aside a place for the eternal storage of man's soul and the sin that was not washed in the blood.

Does that help?

 

I quoted this earlier, apparently you didn't see it.

Ec 9:5
"For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten."

The context is that Solomon is upset that everything you do on earth, you can't keep. All die and another inherits it.

The transfiguration would have had to have been a vision because if not and they came down from heaven, then you're calling Jesus Christ a liar. John 3:13 -
"No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Of course I use concordances, how else am I to know the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew words? Now, commentaries? No, sorry. Just because it's what people believe doesn't mean it's what God intended.

Hard texts? What hard texts?
Do I need to answer every verse you quote when other verses answer them?
Matthew 25:41, 46
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
It is an eternal punishment to be dead (annihilated). That's pretty easy to see.

Romans 2:6-8
"6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. "

Of course, we will all be rewarded for our deeds, good or bad. If good, then eternal life, if bad, eternal death.

Jude 11-13
"11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever."
What is black darkness? It is nothingness. Those who do follow their own lusts will have this reserved for them.
By the way, I thought you believed hell was fiery torment forever. This isn't a good scripture to prove that.

Rev 14:10-11
"10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
As for the people that worshipped and received the mark. Notice their smoke ascends upward, so they are tormented on earth.
"Re 9:18
By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed--by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths."


Rev 20:10
"10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were cast; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Rev 20:15
"15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
The devil will be tormented after the other two are burnt up.

Rev 21:8
8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."


They will be thrown in and burnt up. It is a death from which there is no resurrection.