Is hell full of forgiven people?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by tfisher1, Jun 1, 2006.

  1. tfisher1

    tfisher1
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    We have a man in our church who talks alot about the fact that people don't go to hell for their sins... they go to hell for unbelief? Their sins are forgiven, paid for. Its the 'unpardonable' sin of unbelief that people go to hell for. With that mindset, he also talks alot about how we are not to continually be asking God to forgive our sins as they were forgiven once for all on the cross. We are to 'agree' with God that our sin is wrong, and then thank him for grace and forgiveness. I think Bob George from the radio program People-to-People espouses the 'don't ask for forgiveness view also...

    Your thoughts?
    Todd
     
  2. bapmom

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    the idea is that sin is a symptom of our fallen state. In order to be saved we must trust in Christ to overcome that fallen state for us. If we say that we have to "ask JEsus to forgive our sins" in order to be saved, it could be taken to mean that we must not have unconfessed sin in our life when we die, and that if we do we will go to Hell regardless of our belief in Christ. As it is, this is a very commonly held misbelief. It also could mean that we cannot be saved until we give up all those sins in practice......also a commonly held misbelief.

    I can see this man's point. Perhaps he is being a little too simplistic in his presentation? But God calls for His people to confess....which I think involves the asking for forgiveness but also involves more than that.
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Good question. It forces one to think out their beliefs.

    Did Jesus die for the sins of the world? Did He take upon Himself all the sins of the world? If His atonement was unlimited then it seems there are those who suffer the consequences of hell whose sins were atoned for. Are the sins of the lost man paid for twice?

    This is one of the reasons I embrace limited atonement.
     
  4. Ransom

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    We have a man in our church who talks alot about the fact that people don't go to hell for their sins... they go to hell for unbelief?

    So is unbelief a sin, or isn't it?

    Everyone was an unbeliever at some point, weren't they? If Christ's atonement didn't cover unbelief, what did?
     
  5. J.D.

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    Hello Tfisher, the man in your church is expressing the logical conclusion that the idea of universal atonement brings. If we assume that Christ actually paid for all the sins of every person, then we must come up with some explanation as to why some people go to hell anyway. And so we have the convenient unpardonable sin of unbelief to blame it on.

    So then we have a problem because if we say that Christ paid for EVERY sin, then how is it that he did not pay for THAT sin? Either he paid for every sin or he didn't. Which is it?

    If we establish from the beginning that Christ actually paid for all the sins of those that would believe, and would perservere in belief, otherwise known as the elect, and that the elect DO believe and DO NOT commit the unpardonable sin, then the rest of the tangled doctrinal web falls apart.

    With universal atonment, Christ did NOT ACTUALLY pay the penalty for anyone.
    With limited, or rather, definite, atonement, Christ did ACTUALLY pay the penalty for the elect.

    That's why the elect are certain of heaven, which should bring us great comfort and confidence in the Lord.

    As far as asking for forgiveness of sins after we're saved, I'm not so sure there's a lot of difference between asking for forgiveness and confessing our sins as we are told to do in 1 John "if we confess our sins...". However, I think there is a difference between repentance unto salvation and repentance after salvation. Repentance unto salvation is repentance from SIN, that is, a conviction, a sorrow, that we are sinners in our nature; and repentance after salvation is repentance of SINS, those misdeeds that we commit because we still have the old sin nature within us, of which we are convicted as we grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord.
     
  6. DHK

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    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Christ did pay the penalty of all the sin of the world. That much is true.
    But it does a person no good unless he appropriates that sacrifice unto himself. His unbelief is the rejection of the sacrifice of Christ, which is the rejection of the payment for the penalty for the sins he committed. Yes Christ died for his sins which put him there in hell.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    This is not physical death being spoken of here, but eternal death, contrasted to eternal life--the gift of God. It is his wage, that which he deserves because of his sin, not only his unbelief, but all of his sins. All of his sins cannot be forgiven except he be born again.
    This man has a wrong concept of salvation.

    Even as a Christian I must come daily before the throne of grace and confess my sin before God, ask forgiveness (not in respect to salvation) but in order to restore fellowship with God.

    Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    Forgiveness on behalf of the believer is an absolute necessity in the Christian walk.
    DHK
     
  7. Marcia

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    I don't believe in limited atonement and yet disagree with this man's views about people being in hell for unbelief. If one agrees with this, then we would have to say that only people who reject Christ are in hell, which leads one to posit that people who don't hear about Christ (and therefore cannot "reject" him) do not go to hell. This view is becoming more popular and I have found it to be part of Inclusivism.

    Hell is the default. We all deserve hell - that is where God's justice would have us go. But because God is merciful, he has made salvation available through faith in Christ.

    Believing that Christ paid the penalty for all sins does not mean all are forgiven. I agree with DHK.
     
  8. Salamander

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    Sounds too much like Word of faith movement influence.

    "Forgiven" people are saved people. The "unforgiven" are the unrepenitent.

    The unbelieving are not the forgiven. Forgiveness of sins must be first received with belief.

    The unpardonable sin is that of turning away of the offer of salvation. Unbelief is referred to as "the evil sin"

    Only one sin sends a man to hell, though it can be equated with unbelief, it is the rejection of Christ. One can believe at a latter time in life, so unbelief is not the unpardonable sin.

    Seems the fellow needs some instruction in righteousness and to leave the teachings of men.
     
  9. Salamander

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    So is God then unjust to send men to hell for not ever hearing the Gospel? Or is He then unjust to not have every man a chance to hear? I believe every man has at least one chance to hear and believe, but that God holds the Church accountable for not spreading the Gospel to every creature.

    The Gospel is not a "curse", neither is it a mandate. It is an offer.
     
  10. mima

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    Yes hell is full of forgiven people. We know that Jesus paid for everybody sins (full atonement) because first John 2:2. Confirms that payment . But to finalize this payment the recipient has to accept the payment. The scripture that says they believed not the truth that they might be saved applies here. This is what salvation is, it is the acceptance and believe that Christ was capable of making this payment and that he in fact has made this payment. If those in hell have mental faculties they will have to recognize for all eternity, that they didn't have to go to hell because Jesus paid their sin debt for them. O the agony that awaits those who perish.
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    No there will not be any "forgiven" in Hell and to say so is completely our of the realm. You have to repent to be forgiven, even though Jesus died for the sin of the world you have to accept it or you are not "forgiven". If it was "full atonement" as some have suggested "for all sin" then that would include Adam's original sin and we wouldn't even have to die the natural death.
    :confused: :eek:
     
  12. tfisher1

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    thanks for responding...

    but what about the second part of the question...Once the person does repent and believe and the forgiveness applies to him... does he need to continually ask for forgiveness? Or does he simply feel bad about his sin and confess it to God and ask God to help him not to succumb to temptation again...
    It seems there are some conflicting views on ! John 1:9 and its application if you look around at various teachers... some say confess is simply acknowledging or agreeing with God that you sin, but you don't ask for forgiveness for something that's already been forgiven.... that its redundant.

    Interesting comments, thanks
    Todd
     
  13. J.D.

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    tfisher said:
    Maybe the problem here is that we are trying to reduce forgiveness and confession down to a form - a sacrament if you will. Maybe there is a line somwhere between confession and "asking for forgiveness", but I think that someone's got too much time on their hands if they're really worried over it. The old preacher used to holler "GET RIGHT WITH GOD!" That sounds like good advice to me, but I'll leave it up to you how you go about it, as long as it comes from the heart and is not smothered in some "baptist" sacrament.
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    Jesus said, 'For if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.'

    Profound words by our Lord.


    It is interesting that in the previous verse in Matthew 6, Jesus says 'heavenly Father' and in the above verse He just says 'Father.'

    Any comments?
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    1 John, chapter 2



    "1": My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    1 John, chapter 5

    Chapter
    Book


    "16": If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    Hebrews, chapter 6

    4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    "5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    "6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Don't you think we have a God who not only is able to save us from hell and destruction but is able to keep us for He that is within you is stronger than he that is in the world.


    2 Peter, chapter 1
    5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

    "6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    "7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    "8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    "9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    "10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    I believe in a God that is able to keep me in this world until either death or the resurrection when if the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead it shall also quicken your mortal body.

    Now I am not saying we are perfect, but do not believe the saved will commit such sins as murder, adultery etc that are sins unto death and that is the second death because the first death came because of Adam's sin.

    I noticed no one touched Adam's original sin. They talk about full atonement but forget it would cover Adam's sin also and none of us would have to die. **Bold type removed**(Moderator note: **Bold type spelling is taboo over internet**)

    Now we will get a lot of posts. :laugh: :type:
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Jun 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2006
  16. Marcia

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    God is never unjust. Do you think no one deserves hell? You can believe that everyone has a chance to hear the gospel, but the bible doesn't say that. It says that everyone is accountable to God for their sins. The penalty for sin is death (separation from God eternally). God is not obligated to offer us anything, even a chance to hear the gospel. Maybe he does give everyone a chance to hear it, but that does not mean he needs to or that he does.
     
  17. DHK

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    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
     
  18. Helen

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    All sins are atoned for. Jesus tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2) and His sacrifice was once for all (Hebrews 10:12). Atonement is the settling of accounts with God. So it is true that no man goes to hell because of sin.

    If a man is in hell, it is because of unbelief (John 3:16-18). Although he deserved death because of his sin, that death was taken by Jesus and the punishment is not paid twice.

    HOWEVER, atonement and forgiveness are two different things. Forgiveness has to do with a personal relationship. If a person murders your mother, that person may be tried, found guilty, and spend the rest of his or her life in jail or be executed. That is legal atonement. It has nothing to do with the condition of your heart, however, and whether or not the murderer repented or whether or not you were ready to forgive.

    So while all sin is atoned for by Jesus' work on the Cross, not all sin is forgiven and, in fact, there is one which CANNOT be forgiven -- although it has been atoned for.

    All people who have ever lived have had enough of the truth presented to them, one way or another, in their lives, to choose to reject it or follow it (see Romans 1). Thus no man has an excuse. Those who reject the truth get all that is left -- the lie. Those who want and seek the truth are led by the Father to the Son, who refuses none.

    If atonement were limited, then Christ did not taste death for every man and the writer to the Hebrews lied. If atonement were limited, then there would be insults to God left standing for eternity.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    The Scripture never said anything about whether the rich man in hell believed or disbelieved only that he had "no compassion".
    I do not believe you can have atonement without forgivenness of sins, and everyone wants to say this would "makes God a liar", well there could be a different understand of the Scripture like "He paid the price for your sins but unless you accept Him then your sins are still against you and will most certainly send you to Hell.
    Unless an individual becomes part of the reconciliation then it is not complete.

    You can call it atonement (reconciled with God, which is to make a way for you) or you can say forgiveness but in order to have the atonement you must be reconciled and to be reconciled you must be forgiven.

    "unbelief will take you to Hell aright" but that which is not of faith is sin so "unbelief is sin".

    Romans, chapter 3
    "23": For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    "24": Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


    Acts, chapter 20
    "28": Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Hebrews, chapter 2
    "9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The fact still remains that He died for all because of our sins and not unbelief but you must believe in order to receive His blood which though your sins be as scarlet they shall be made white as snow.


    Revelation, chapter 12
    "10": And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    "11": And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    To say the "forgiven" will be in Hell is to say people without sin will be in Hell. Never heard such doctrine for now you are saying we need the blood of Jesus 2 times, well He died for our sins once and will never die again. Now under the Law it went back and forth but not now if you receive the blood you are going to Heaven and that is that.


    Revelation, chapter 7
    "14": And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    To say the forgiven will be in Hell is to say that the blood of Christ will be in Hell and that is a dangerous saying.

    Atonement= If I owed a man $1000.00 dollars and refused to pay him and my neighbor paid the debt for me the debt would be paid but I still would not be reconciled to that man for he would still hold against me the fact that I refused to pay him. Now if I went to him and repented that I had not paid him and ask his forgiveness then would the "atonement" be fulfilled.
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Jun 2, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2006
  20. Salamander

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    There you go again, pulling the Scripture on them for their wrong doctrinal beliefs:thumbsup:
    :praise: :Fish: :praise:
     

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