Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by James_Newman, Sep 20, 2004.

  1. James_Newman

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    The KJV plainly states in revelation that HELL is cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE. This seems to indicate that the two are not the same place. But most Christians seem to believe that the two places are synonymous. I believe this is largely due to modern versions failing to make this distinction. Either that, or I am dead wrong. So I ask the question for the 3rd time. Are hell and the lake of fire the same place? If so, please show it with scripture.
     
  2. Johnv

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    My understanding is that the Greek "Gehenna" (the Lake of Fire) is what we know of as Hell. "Hades", otoh, is the Hebrew "Sheol", the place of the dead. The problem we sometimes run into is that some English translations translate both Gehenna and Hades as "Hell/hell", when they are in fact separate, distinct, and unrelated.

    [ September 20, 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  3. Scott J

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    John has given me something to research.

    Perhaps Jesus was talking about the final judgment when He used Gehenna.
     
  4. James_Newman

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    Where is gehenna referred to as a lake of fire?
     
  5. Scott J

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    Yes you are. You are assuming that the NIV fails to teach two distinct places because it doesn't use the same wording as the KJV. The confusion appears to be caused by the KJV's failure to distinguish between Gehenna and Hades as the Greek does.
    There is now a place where the lost go for punishment. In the end that place, Hades in Greek, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
    I never suggested this and don't believe it.

    The point John brought up is that maybe Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place with Hades being the current abode of the lost dead.
    At least one of them, Hades, is not... as is clearly indicated by the NIV.
     
  6. Johnv

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    Earlier, I stated the following:

    "The problem we sometimes run into is that some English translations translate both Gehenna and Hades as "Hell/hell", when they are in fact separate, distinct, and unrelated."

    I negleted to note that the KJV is one of those translations. It pokes a hole in James Newman 's OP where he alleges that it is the "MV" that fails to make the distinction. In this case, the KJV fails to make the distinction, while the NIV clearly makes the distinction.
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

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    By H. Boyce Taylor

    The final abode of the wicked is Gehenna. Several things are taught in the New Testament about it.

    First, it is a prepared place. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt. 25:41). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Prepared for the most depraved and dangerous prisoners—the devil and his messengers.

    Second, for a fitted people. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom. 9:32). Gehenna is a specially prepared place for vessels of wrath specially fined for perdition. The word translated destruction in Romans 9:22 is translated perdition in 1 Timothy 6:9, 2 Peter 3:7, and Revelation 17:8-11. It never means annihilation. "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isa. 66:24). "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2). These teach that a part of the preparation of the lost for Hell is in their resurrected bodies. These bodies if any thing like the bodies of the saints will be flesh and bones Lk. 24:39). They will also be indestructible if like the saints (1 Cor. 15:53). They shall be such as to bring shame to the wicked and awake everlasting contempt and abhorring to all beholders Isa.. 66:24).

    Thirdly, Gehenna is a place where the damned are tormented by fire and brimstone by day and night forever and ever. "And the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11).

    Fourth, this fire will be unquenchable. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (A. 9:43-48). Think of it! Imperishable bodies of flesh in unquenchable fire.

    Fifth, an undying conscience. "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented" (Lk.16:25). Always an accusing conscience—a worm that dieth not. A gnawing, burning conscience on the inside and unquenchable fire on the outside. No wonder God says they have no rest day nor night forever and forever (Rev. 14:11).

    Sixthly, the wicked live in Gehenna as long as God lives. The strongest expression in the Bible for that which never ends is "forever and ever." That expression is found twelve times in Revelation. Eight times it is used of God "who liveth forever and ever," etc. Once (22:5) it is used of the righteous. Three times it is used of the conscious suffering of the wicked (14: 11; 19:3; 20:10). As long as God lives, that long will the wicked suffer.

    Seventh, but some man says, I do not see any justice in that. Well, note that the righteous in Heaven shout over God 's justice in His judgments (Rev. t9: 16). They see it whether you do or not. Again, a man in one minute kills his fellowman. He goes to the prison for a life sentence. Suppose he lives 50 years. His offense was committed in one minute; he is punished over 26 million minutes for one minute's sin. That, too, for only one offense. Multiply that by an innumerable number of offenses, not against depraved man, but against Holy God, and you see that even from the viewpoint of earthly courts the wicked ought to suffer eternally (Rev. 22:11), and you will know in part the way of eternal punishment. Down here it is given to us to know only in part (1 Cor. 13:9).

    Eighthly, who goes to Gehenna? "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8). The unbeliever as well as the great sinners. How shall you escape the damnation of Gehenna, if you reject Jesus Christ, man's only Savior (Acts 4: 12; Heb. 9:22)? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

     
  8. Trotter

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    Amen, Pastor Bob!
     
  9. Trotter

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    As far as I can tell, 'gehenna' refers to the lake of fire, the final destination of Satan and all unbelievers.

    Hades refers to the place of tormant that will hold those who die outside of the Body of Christ (see Luke 16:23).

    The KJV translates both of these terms as 'hell', as well as almost all occurances of 'sheol' in the OT.

    Just because a translation other than the KJV uses the actual Greek word instead of simply putting'hell' in does not change the meaning. In fact, it clarifies it.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  10. Marcia

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    Isn't what is meant by "hell" in the KJV in this passage supposed to be Hades, meaning the grave? So death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is what we usually think of as hell.
     
  11. Scott J

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    Thanks everyone. I was going to post the results of my study but you all have covered it much better than I could have.

    Using Strong's and the KJV, I determined that Gehenna is equal to the lake of fire. Fire is mentioned in the same passage six of the 12 times it is used. Fire is only mentioned along with Hades in Revelation where Hades is thrown into Gehenna. As mentioned earlier, Gehenna is a permanent place. Scripture doesn't establish Hades as permanent.

    My study is incomplete but it also appears that the lost will have a resurrected physical body when they are thrown into Gehenna but only their souls reside in Hades. The only indication of a body is that the rich man "lifted up his eyes" being in the torment of Hades. Even so, we know that the rich man's body had been buried.
     
  12. Scott J

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    You are wrong. The confusion is because the KJV fails to make the proper distinction between hell (gehenna, Lake of Fire) and Hades.

    This is not necessarily an error in the KJV but it comes close. When God uses two words meaning two different things and human translators choose to use only one word, you can't call that perfect, inerrant, or even the best translation much less inspired.
     
  13. James_Newman

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    What about Luke 16:23? Here we see the rich man being tormented in flames. I don't know greek, but I do have a Strongs concordance, and it says hades in there, does it not? This rich man has more than eyes. He has a tongue, and begs to have water dropped on it to cool it
    We have just seen that this is false. We also have yet to see any evidence that Gehenna is the lake of fire, other than the assertion that it must be because it has fire. If there is fire in gehenna, and there is fire in hades, then based on this assumption, gehenna could just as easily be hades.
     
  14. robycop3

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    The Greek word rendered "hell" in Rev;20:18 is "hades". Remember, we have the Hebrew "sheol"(literally, "grave"), and "tartarus"(the temporary abode of the angels who sinned) as well as hades & gehenna all rendered "hell" in the KJV. For whatever reasons, the AV translators didn't want to place the multi-word translations of those words into the text, nor did they wish to leave those words untranslated, so they lumped all of'em into the generic "hell". Newer versions usually leave those words untranslated, and the reader can see they're different. The newer versions are more clear than is the KJV in this respect.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    The NIV translates both gehenna and hades as hell in places, does it not? As for sheol, I can show you fire there as well in Deuteronomy 32:22. So are all these places the lake of fire?
     
  16. Plain ol' Ralph

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    Since "hell" is hell, and the Lake of Fire has it's distinction of being the final "home" for all who reject Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, the only distinction is that of the L of f being that which will contain that "incorruptable" / eternal body to be evr burning and the smoke of their torment ascending up for ever. Thus the correct distinction in the KJB in our Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, anyhting else is only conjecture, including the majority of the posts on this subject, in needd of further study? I thinkest not.
     
  17. Scott J

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    You are right about the tongue and the heat. I made a mistake on that part.

    But that presents a little twist in interpretation since verse 22 says the rich man was buried.
    Not true. Gehenna is a place of everlasting torment and final condemnation.

    We see in Rev 20 that Hades delivered up the dead that were there to be judged according to their works. So there are two different places taught no matter how you translate the words.
    Perhaps but the preponderance of the evidence points against that conclusion.
     
  18. James_Newman

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    Everlasting does not always mean for all eternity in perpetuity until ever after infinity etc...

    everlasting

    \Ever*last"ing\a. 1. Lasting or enduring forever; exsisting or continuing without end; immoral; eternal. ``The Everlasting God.'' --Gen. xx1. 33.

    2. Continuing indefinitely, or during a long period; perpetual; sometimes used, colloquially, as a strong intensive; as, this everlasting nonsence.

    This is from a modern dictionary, Websters Revised Unabridged. If you look in an older dictionary, like the 1828 Websters, you will get an even better definition of what everlasting means. It means to last throughout an age. In context, that age might be eternity, or it might be 1000 yrs. or anywhere inbetween.

    Where do we see that gehenna is the place of final condemnation? No doubt that is the case with the lake of fire, but I do not think you can make a definitive case from scripture that gehenna refers to the lake of fire, any more than it refers to hades or sheol.
     
  19. Plain ol' Ralph

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    What's wrong, Scott J, you can't discern between the soul and the body?

    The soul is eternal, this body of flesh returns to whence it came, the dust, but when the L of F is concerned, we then are speaking of that eternal body being joined with the soul of men and suffering eternal torment.

    One of the phrases I hear alot, "You'll burn for all eternity in hell" Just is not true, for at the Great White Throne, one will be "given up" from the torment of hell to be judged for what they've done in their body, thus determining their "level" of torment.

    Golly, if one would only stick to their KJB they wouldn't have all these silly questions.
     
  20. Scott J

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    Yes I can.

    Did you intend to be offensive for no reason?

    This is basically what I suggested earlier.

    I agree. They will be given up from "Hades" according to Rev.

    Our discussion has basically been about drawing a distinction between Hades and Gehenna. I am saying that there is a clear distinction. I think James is questioning that.
    Do you have scripture references for this? I am not disagreeing and have heard it many times before. Just interested in the biblical proof that some will suffer more than others.

    Actually the MV's help clarify the situation while the KJV clouds it. The MV's show the two words as two words, just like God inspired them. The KJV shows them as one word, contrary to the way God inspired them.
     

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