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Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by James_Newman, Sep 20, 2004.

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  1. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Deacon Lew, the Scriptures were speaking of Jesus' 12 disciples, 11 of whom became Apostles after Jesus was resurrected, in Matthew 5. And just as when I say,"I drive a Ford", you'd understand me as saying I drive a motor vehicle made by FoMoCo. However, FoMoCo makes many kinds of MV, so you'd ask me, which one. If at first I'd said, "I drive an F-150", you'd known instantly what I drive.

    I think this whole thread is merely an attempt to justify the KJV's rendering of "hell" for ALL the different abodes of the wicked dead and wicked angels. None of 'em are pleasant places, and all could be justifiably called "hell", but the GREEK is SPECIFIC in its naming of each place, and while the generic KJV rindering of "hell" isn't incorrect, it's not the BEST rendering, either. I've often been asked by novice KJV readers how hell can be cast into itself(Rev.20:14) & had to take time to explain the hell/hades thing.

    What's wrong with the correct specific literal meanings?
     
    #101 robycop3, Sep 29, 2004
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Deacon Lew:Clearly the "them" are the disciples.

    Actually, the disciples were counted as AMONG the "them". Proof? Please read all of Matthew 5, 6, & 7 to see if at any time in these events Jesus left off speaking to all the crowd & began speaking only to His disciples privately. Again, the "disciples" in this discourse are "The Twelve".

    Otherwise we have no way to understand the english language.

    ?????????????????


    My friends, our Lord warned us of hell, not the lake of fire.

    BUUZZ!

    He warned us of GEHENNA, and in a few cases, HADES. And gehenna IS the LOF. Here's more proof: the ending of Mark 9:45 in the KJV...to be cast into hell , into the fire that never shall be quenched.

    Now, let's look at the Greek:

    ballo=to be cast(infinitive)

    eis=into(preposition)

    gehenna=hell

    eis=into

    pur=fire

    asbestos=never be quenched, unquenchable(Ever heard that Greek word before?)

    Now, is this describing anything other than the LOF? It isn't hades, since hades will be cast into the LOF, so its flames will not be eternal.

    Once again, this is but a weak attempt to justify the wording of the KJV.


    There is hell to pay if you miss the Kingdom of God.

    Agreed...and those who die in sin will end up in gehenna after a time in hades.
     
    #102 robycop3, Sep 29, 2004
  3. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Bro. Roby,

    Just because they won't be quenched, that proves they are eternal?
    Do you believe this "for ever" nonquenchedness extends to the new Earth of Rev 21? In other words will Bozra and Idumea still be burning after the final judgment on the new Earth?

    Quench means somebody put it out. "Shall not be quenched" only means nobody can or does put it out. This could be in Hell, the LOF, or (as we see here in Isiah 34) in Bozrah, and in the land of Idumea.

    I'm being sarcastic here. (You know I love you, Roby.) Is this lamp the Lake of Fire? It was to burn always


    Lacy
     
    #103 Lacy Evans, Sep 29, 2004
  4. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    How come we don't sprinkle babies? Is it because dipping saves you? Is it because it wears off if you do it too soon? Its because you have to believe before you get baptised. Baptism is an act of obedience for a believer. If you never got baptised, you would still be a believer, and you would still recieve the promise of the last day.

    John 6:40
    And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
    24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    We are nearing the end of 6000 years of history from the creation. 6 days.

    Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

    The 1000 year kingdom is the 7th day, the day of rest.

    Leviticus 23
    36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

    John 7
    37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    The 8th day, into eternity, is the last day in scripture. It is after the 7th day of rest. The first resurrection is at the beginning of the 7th day, the second, final resurrection is after.

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    We enter into that rest by obedience. Moses and Israel were delivered out of egypt, as a picture of our deliverance from the bondage of sin. However, not all the Jews that were deivered from Egypt, Moses included, entered into the promised land. The OT promised land is a type of the millennial kingdom. See Hebrews 3 and 4.

    Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

    This is not an attempt to justify the KJV rendering. The KJV rendering is correct. This is an attempt to get you to see that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, by the finished work of Christ on the cross alone, just as the bible says. We are also going to be judged for our works, just as the bible says. But just as I said at the beginning of this thread, because the new bibles blur this distinction between hell and the lake of fire, you see warnings of hell fire addressed to Christians, and wrongly believe these warnings mean you can lose your salvation.

    Satan has you working for your free salvation, and resting in regard to the reward you are told to work for. 1000 years in hell is going to seem like an eternity, especially since that fire wont be quenched. But it will be cast into the lake of fire when its purpose is fulfilled. Everyone that was in hell will be raised up on the last day and those that are not found written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire with it.
     
    #104 James_Newman, Sep 30, 2004
  5. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    In my personal opinion, science fiction does not belong in a theology forum. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     
    #105 Craigbythesea, Sep 30, 2004
  6. TC

    TC Active Member
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    In discussing Mark 9:43-48:

    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
    48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    one thing I see is that those who believe in millenial exclusion has not proved is these:

    1 enter into life = millenial kingdom

    2 hell fire is temporary in this passage

    Jesus gave no indication that either was true. In fact, the way Jesus stated about going into hell fire made it seem very permanent to me. He did not give any indication of a release here.

    I believe that gehenna is same as lake of fire because Jesus made it sound so permanent(however, I'm not dogmatic about it, since I don't know everything). As far as the trash dump example, I don't go back and pull my garbage out of the dump once I throw something away. Do you?
     
    #106 TC, Sep 30, 2004
  7. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Please compare v 43 and v 47. It couldn't be any clearer if it hit you on the knoggin'.

    Hell fire is temporary (Rev 20:14). that is a Bible fact. The question is ,"Does this passage refer to "Hell" or the LOF?" My Bible says Hell. I'm not confused at all.

    Missing the Kingdom is permanent. If you miss it, you missed it! But it is no different than being chastened to death like the saints in the church at Corinth who did not discern the Lord's body. They missed the rest of their life. If you disobey your parents, you will die early. You missed the rest of your life because of disobedience and it is permanent. Esau missed out on the 1st born blessing because he was a profane person. Moses missed out on the promised land because he was disobedient. It was permanent.

    But all these punishments are permanent in a relative sense. Moses isn't locked out of heaven. The saints who were killed by God at Corinth aren't subject to absolute utter eternal chastening. My daddy's whippings each and every one came to an end. And I couldn't quench the fire on my tail end. It just had to burn itself out.

    Lacy
     
    #107 Lacy Evans, Sep 30, 2004
  8. TC

    TC Active Member
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    Does kingdom of God really = millenial kingdom as you keep saying? The only verse that defines the kingdom of God is Romans 14:17 and it says:

    For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Other than that, the kingdom of God is not explicitly defined. You have to read into the phrase what you want to - which is why there is so much debate over what it is exactly. Some say now and some say later, some say same as millenial kingdom and some say new heaven and new earth, some say physical rule and some say rule in the hearts of saved people everywhere.

    Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21). And the Bible makes it clear that the kingdom of God never ends. The millenial kingdom is physical example of the kingdom of God, but it does not define the entire kingdom - as it will end after a thousand years. The true kingdom of God is eternal and continues forever.
     
    #108 TC, Sep 30, 2004
  9. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Now is the operative word here. See my post in the other thread, millennial exclusionists sound off.
     
    #109 James_Newman, Sep 30, 2004
  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    This thread has deviated from a version issue and has become a doctrinal issue. If you wish to, you may continue this debate in the Theology Forum.
     
    #110 Pastor_Bob, Sep 30, 2004
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