Is Hope of Eternal Life Bound to Faith?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 30, 2008.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    Can one entertain a certain hope of eternal life without faith? If not why not? If one can, what support do you have for your belief?

    How does one support their idea in light of the following passage? 1Ti 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

    And this verse, : 1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
    2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
     
    #1 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 30, 2008
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  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    The following questions come to mind. If Salvation is by faith and faith is a gift from God and the resulting salvation is unchangeably eternal, was Paul in error speaking of casting off or departing from faith? Are we not left with the only possibility that salvation indeed can continue on with or without out faith? How then can salvation be ‘by faith alone’ if faith is not a necessitated condition of salvation? Can one be saved and not be found pleasing to God? “Without faith it is impossible to please God.”
     
  3. steaver

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    No.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  4. steaver

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    1Ti 5:12Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

    What needs to be done HP, is we need to read the entire passage and keep the "one liner" in it's proper context. ALways apply the 20/20 rule, read 20 verses before and 20 verses after and get the full picture.

    Paul is speaking about Christian widows remarrying....

    1Ti 5:11But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;

    The idea here seems to be that she remarries an unbeliever, setting aside her first faith. Paul approves remarriage "in the Lord" (Rom 7:7, 1 Cor 7:39) The damnation has to be taken as chastening according to 1 Cor 11:30-32 and Hebrews 12:4-11. (The King James Bible Commentary)

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  5. TCGreek

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    It's like asking what is the object of saving faith and has it changed...
     
  6. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I agree, but are you saying that in doing so 'some may put off their faith and receive damnation' that it has nothing to do with their salvation? If so, can you substanciate that by Scripture?
     
    #6 Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 30, 2008
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  7. DHK

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    Paul may simply be speaking of the unsaved. Again, context is key. Go back to verse 6:

    1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

    --Alive in the flesh but dead in the spirit, or not saved.

    The churches had a responsibility to care for the poor, especially the widows who had no means of income. There was no social security; no type of welfare to fall back on. It was the responsibility of the church. Now the church had a general command:

    Galatians 6:9-10 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

    We are obligated to do good to all people; but especially to those who belong to the household of faith, believers in Christ.
    Thus it is likely that there may have been some unsaved widows amongst the larger churches, like Ephesus, in particular.
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: That creates a greater problem. How does one cast of their ‘first faith’ if in fact they have never had faith at all?
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    What about post #2? Are there any that would be so kind and brave as to tackle that post? :)
     
  10. BobRyan

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    And then we have in Romans 11 "you too should FEAR for you stand only by your FAITH -- if He did not spare them neither will He spare you" (should you reject that faith some day).

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    That much is true.

    That much is not true which is why the saints keep getting warning after warning in the NT about the need to persevere and not "fall from grace" and not be "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

    Nope. All those warnings by Paul are "legit" and he is not simply "warning the lost to avoid becoming lostER" as some like to imagine.

    Romans 11 "you stand ONLY by your FAITH" is in fact "still in the Bible".

    God said it.

    I believe it.

    nope -- the Bible rejects "salvation APART from faith".

    Salvation "apart from faith" is WORKS it is not "by grace are you saved through faith".

    By "works are you saved apart from faith" -- the work of "yes but when I was 7 I trusted Christ so now I am saved apart from faith" that would be trusting to a past work APART from faith at all. In fact that would be "presumption" not "salvation".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. steaver

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    I already have. Women are not damned to everlasting hell for remarrying. Verse 12 is in direct context to verse 11.

    .....they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

    If we see it your way then women remarrying lose their salvation.



    God bless! :thumbs:
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: So faith is equated to what, getting married? I think not. Explain to us what the damnation consists of.



    HP: Not necessarily so, but the apostle here warns of the clear possibility of them breaking their commitment to Christ, having “cast off their faith to Christ” and by doing so incurring “damnation” or condemnation.
     
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    BR: That much is not true which is why the saints keep getting warning after warning in the NT about the need to persevere and not "fall from grace" and not be "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

    HP: I like your response BR.:thumbs: Now I would like to see some of the others holding to OSAS respond to the post.
     
  15. steaver

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    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    The scripture does not say, does it?

    What commitment does the passage speak of that you are refering to? The young widows Paul is speaking of are already Christians. Paul says don't "take them in" (vs 9).

    So you are suggesting that these young widowed Christian ladies are making another commitment by entering into the churches care?

    This may be true in light of the context. These young Christian widows may have said they would devote their lives to serving the Lord in the church if the church would provide for them. Like nuns do maybe. But Paul says they, being young, may wax wanton against Christ and cast of their first faith, NOT faith in Christ to save them, but according to context, their first faith in Christ to provide for them apart from a husband. We are talking about WIDOWS here. We must stay in context.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Explain to us what the damnation consists of.


    HP: Then to error on the safe side would be to consider that indeed the damnation spoken of here most likely is the damnation we know clearly of, i.e. to be damned away from God and Christ, would it not? Tell me of any other damnation you know Scriptures speak about? Why would one try and count out the one damnation we do know about when one admits that they know of no other? It is like saying, ‘Lets ignore the possibility of the obvious because in this context it does not fit my preconceptions of OSAS.’ .....or so it might appear.
     
  17. steaver

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    Not according to context. Why don't we refer to another passage where damnation of the believer is spoken of.....

    1Cr 11:29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    To use your conclusion of the Christian widow, any believer who does not descern the Lord's body when coming to the Lord's table will go to hell. This is not Paul's conclusion, but rather.....

    1Cr 11:30For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    Therefore the damnation spoken of the Christian widow would be the same according to context.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  18. steaver

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    Here is another example of the believer's condemnation....

    Jam 3:1My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

    To use your conclusion of the Christian widow, all believers spoken of here in James are condemned to hell and teachers are given a greater condemnation than even hell.

    So I believe you must conclude that you spoken in haste about the term "damnation" and should concede that the passage in Timothy does not speak of losing salvation. Other examples in scripture have proven this out.

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     
  19. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Not necessarily so. In this life we may garner the ‘hope of damnation’ but it is not meted out in finality until we pass from this life to the next and stand in judgment before God. As long as we remain in this life, and the Holy Spirit has not withdrawn Himself, there is the real possibility of repentance and turning once again in faith and obedience. Hell will be our final end ONLY if we continue on the path of damnation until the end refusing to repent and turn from our sins.

    The certainty of hell is yet to be decided in finality for the living. In this life the wicked entertain the hope of eternal damnation just as we entertain the hope of eternal life through repentance, faith and continued obedience to the end.
     
  20. steaver

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    So you are a Jehovah Witness then. Nothing you said here is found in the Christian Holy Bible. Sounds like a Watch Tower publication.

    You gave me a challenge and I met the challenge with scripture putting down the notion that damnation always means to hell. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this and rather come back with a JW talking point.

    Can you tell us what commitment the Christian widow would have made to Christ in order to be provided for by the church?

    God Bless! :thumbs:
     

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