Is Irresistible Grace "resistible"?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Dec 16, 2010.

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  1. convicted1

    convicted1
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    Here is a quote from John Piper concerning this topic:

    John Piper explains “Irresistible Grace”:

    “This is what we mean when we use terms like sovereign grace or irresistible grace. We mean that the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit, and therefore he is omnipotent and sovereign. And therefore, he is irresistible and infallibly effective in his regenerating work. Which doesn’t mean that we don’t resist him. We do. The Bible is plain about that (Acts 7:51). What the sovereignty of grace and the sovereignty of the Spirit mean is that when God chooses, he can overcome the rebellion and resistance of our wills. He can make Christ look so compelling that our resistance is broken and we freely come to him and receive him and believe him.”

    Here he makes a "wishy-washy" statement and seems to be speaking from both sides of his mouth. Which is it Mr. Piper?? "I.R." or "R"???

    This came from www.grace.org:

    Irresistible Grace
    When the gospel is preached, an invitation is issued by the Lord to all people to come to him for salvation. However, as the first article clearly states, the natural state of all people renders them incapable of responding to this invitation, except to reject it. So when God calls an elect sinner to repentance and faith in Christ Jesus, he does so by sending his Holy Spirit to work a great change in that sinner's heart, enabling them to see their sin and their need of a saviour and leading them to put their faith in Christ alone for salvation. The Lord, by his Spirit, irresistably draws his elect to himself, raising them to spiritual life and making them willing to trust in Jesus.

    So the Spirit makes us willing to trust? Hmmmm.......

    www.grovergunn.net:

    Irresistible Grace

    The fourth point is irresistible grace or effectual grace. This point logically follows from the three we have discussed so far. If fallen man is totally depraved and at enmity against God and unable to do anything good, then grace must be irresistibleif any are to be saved. If fallen man has to pay the price of not resisting the gospel while still in his natural state as a son of Adam, then no man will be saved, for no son of Adam has the native moral ability to pay that price. If before the foundation of the world, God "predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Ephesians 1:5) and if God's sovereign plans never fail, then God's saving grace must always be effectual. If the Good Shepherd laid down His life for the sheep and then gives all the sheep eternal life (John 10:11, 28), then logically the work of the atonement must be applied without fail to all for whom Christ died.

    According to the doctrine of irresistible grace, the spiritual state of heart that unfailingly results in repentant saving faith is a gift God gives to His people. Saving faith is not something that fallen man is able to do by means of his own natural spiritual abilities as a token payment to God in exchange for the otherwise free gift of salvation.

    www.theopedia.com/irresistiblegrace:

    Those who obtain the new birth do so, not because they wanted to obtain it, but because of the sovereign discriminating grace of God. That is, men are overcome by grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, sovereign efficacious grace is required to convert him. This is done by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit whereby a fallen man who has heard the gospel is made willing and necessarily turns to Christ in God-given faith.

    Oh so now even if someone doesn't want salvation, God will shove it down his throat and say, "HERE"???

    I gave you four different sites with their definition of "I.R.". The last two seem to be pretty much the same, but the way Piper stated his, I don't get it? He seems to be "straddling the fence" on this one fellas.

    Here are some questions I want to ask:

    . Did any on here say "yea Lord" the first time He called them, or "nay Lord?

    . If you said "nay Lord", why did you say that?

    . When you finally said "yea Lord", what caused you to do so?



    I know none of us say "yea" or "nay", but I thought I'd try saying it that way.

    Thank you all in advance for you kind and civil responses!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  2. Luke2427

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    This is why most people have a problem with Calvinism. They don't understand it.

    They only know what their pastors have said about it- pastors who usually don't know much more about it than they do.

    When most folks see irresistable grace they take it at face value.

    This is unfortunate and it keeps many in the dark concerning the doctrines of grace.

    This tenet of Calvinism does not teach that men cannot resist the Spirit of God. In fact Calvinism says that unregenerate man can do nothing BUT resist the grace of God. That is all they are capable of doing.

    The idea behind irresistible grace is that when God gets ready to save a man, He will. There is nothing the man can do to stop it.

    God makes him willing. He doesn't drag him kicking and screaming. He changes his heart. The man goes from unwilling to very willing. Nothing is done against his will- his will is changed.

    That is all that is meant by irresistable grace. Everybody resists it until God gets ready to save- then no one can- nor, at that point, do they want to.

    Piper is perfectly consistent here.
     
  3. convicted1

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    Bro Luke,

    I am not taking "TULIP" and changing its meaning. I am showing you what some of the reformed believers stated in regards to IR.

    Here is what John Frame says about it:

    Grace is not like a box of candy that you can send back if you don't want it. Grace is divine favor, an attitude of God's own heart. We cannot stop him from loving us, if he chooses to do so. Nor can we stop him from giving us blessings of salvation: regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification. His purpose in us will certainly be fulfilled, Phil. 1:6, Eph. 1:11.

    That which I bold I take to mean God saying, "Here's My Grace, now take it!"


    I found this in www.dougledbetter.org:

    Can you resist God?

    Have you ever been called to dinner by your mom? Did you resist? Have you ever been called by God?

    There are two types of "calls" from God. There's the outward call of God and the inward call of God.

    The outward call of God comes from the preaching of His word. Many share the gospel with others, but not all who hear the message receive it. The outward call of God can be resisted. In fact, apart from God's working in us, we will resist this call (remember total depravity?).

    The inward call of God is His secret work of regeneration (rebirth, a new beginning, spiritual resurrection) done in the souls of the elect by the work of the Holy Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit changes us. God places within us a desire for Him. Before the inward call of God, no person is inclined to come to Him. After the inward call, we respond to God with the gift of faith. The inward call of God cannot be resisted.

    Bro Luke, let me tell you my story. When I was about 16 years old, I was coming home from school on the bus. I was about ten minutes from home, setting in the front row, right behind the bus driver. God came that moment and showed me what I was without Him, and that I needed to do better. I didn't know what to do. I told mom and dad that I wanted to do better, but over a period of a few days, I went back to my same old routine. From that time, until May 24th, 2007, whenever I did something wrong, there was that still, small voice telling me not to do it, and as soon as I had did what I did, it would still be there, asking me why did I do it. God never forsook me, even in my sinful "mire". Most of the time He talked to me and I hadn't talked to any one about the bible, going to church, etc. You see, Bro Luke, in my ignorance, I pushed God away....you may not like to see that, but it is true! God would draw me, and I'd push Him away. However, He repeatedly drew me, and when I got scared of where I was going, a Godly sorrow set up in my life. Now don't tell me that's "IR", because I resisted it for YEARS!

    I know more about TULIP than you may think, but not as much as you do, I reckon. I know that Jesus so loved the WORLD(John 3:16), that He died for the ungodly(Rom 5:6), and through His death, burial, and resurrection, we now have access to the Father through His Son(John 12:32). I believe with everything in me that "IR" is really "R"! I guess we will just agree to disagree, and I love you anyways!! Merry CHRISTmas Brother!!:jesus::godisgood::thumbs:

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  4. Luke2427

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    No Calvinist believes that men cannot push god away, though, Bro. Willis. That is a common misconcpetion. You are misreading those quotes, BTW.

    What we believe is that when God gets ready to save- that's it- it is a done deal.

    All men do push God away until the moment that God gives them a new heart.

    Grace is absolutely resistable until God intendes to apply it- then it is not. It is not because the purposes of God cannot be thwarted- a man who God chooses can no more resist God when God gets ready to save him than he could pluck the Almighty form his throne.

    Now, Bro. Willis, you can continue to think that Calvinists beleive that grace cannot EVER be resisted, but you will be wrong. No one believes that. It can be resisted only because God allows it to be. It cannot be when God stops allowing it to be.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Bro Luke,

    Here are some passages for you to chew on. First, let's take at look at Prov. ch. 1:

    23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. The "reproff " here is talking about not walking with the ungodly(sinners).

    24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

    25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

    26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

    27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

    28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

    29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

    30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

    Now, here we see what God says He will do with rebellious people. He gave a command, and that command was not followed. He then says what He will do when they call out to Him in distress.

    Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.


    Again, here's another example of not listening to the Lord. They would not listen to Jesus, and though He was willing to save Israel(the 12 tribes), they would not believe in Him.

    I am not trying to pound you in the ground with scripture, but I do like to support my case, and so do you, too. If someone goes to hell, and then the lake of fire, it is solely because of their unbelief in the finished works of Jesus Christ on the cross. Except ye believe I am He........

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  6. preacher4truth

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    convicted1

    You're taking this to task over it's name. That, and you don't understand it, but the fact is, you are taking this to task over its name, more than anything, and are using this, unjustly, to deny the true teaching of irresistible grace.

    Basically you're saying "It's name is wrong, thus the doctrine itself is wrong." Faulty logic. I do however agree that its title is somewhat misleading, and this is why many people reject it. Those, such as Piper, who are trying to defend and explain it, are really defending its title more than its teaching, at least initially in explaining it. It could perhaps be titled something differently. Maybe we should rework the TULIP theory.

    Perhaps we can come up with the TURNIP theory? :laugh:
     
  7. Luke2427

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    Brother Willis,

    No one is arguing against the fact that people go to hell because they refuse to listen.

    Calvinists believe that ALL people refuse to listen until they are given a new heart.

    The Bible teaches this as well.

    Not one of those verses teach a single thing that Calvinists do not believe.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Boice indicates that the term "Irristable Grace" is misleading...It does not mean that God drags you Kicking & Screaming into the kingdom. Boice prefers "Efficacious Grace" be used.
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Exactly. Making Calvinists say that God simply determines when a person is His based on election is as faulty an understanding of Calvinism (and the Scriptures) as any I've seen. That is in fact taking a very human-centered logical take on Calvinist theology when in fact, even Calvinists do not hold that position, otherwise called a straw man argument.

    God "draws," not handcuffs. The Holy Spirit "convicts," He doesn't brainwash. The Word of God "convinces," it doesn't coerce. And, Reformed theologians and preachers understand all of the above, but their detractors do not.

    I've shared my own testimony on the board several times now, largely because it is an example of God doing just what I wrote above (and note, I did not have the slightest clue about Calvinism, Baptist, etc., before I was saved -- not even on my radar!). I was at open war with God for a time, then gave up to full atheism, believing that God was merely a human construct to make weak people feel good. It was into that hardened heart that God began His work, and causing me to turn to Him was child's play for Him. He accomplished it over a period of several months and I became MOST willing to turn to Him, even though when I had turned from Him, I did it with cursing and hate.

    I'll expect that virtually every saved person on this board (and I am not assuming that everyone here is truly saved -- some are merely religious and it shows) will have a similar testimony of God's drawing and wooing power. When it was time to come to Him, you and we WANTED to. Then we stepped back and decided that it was all us... Sorry... He was here first in every case!
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    "Arminians are right to protest the notions of mechanical necessity and impersonal determinism suggested (and sadly sometimes taught) under the banner of irrisitible grace. God created human beings with free moral agency, and He does not violate this even in the supernatural work of regeneration. Christ does not rudely bludgeon His way into the human heart. He does not abrogate our creaturely freedom. No, He beckons, and woos, He pleads and pursues. He waits and wins."

    Timothy George (Reformed) quoted from Salvation and Sovereignty by Keathley.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    God Bless you Guy & I am glad He turned you around.....your a wonderful example of God's good grace. I hope both you & your family have a very Merry Christmas & you and your son are in my prayers.
     
  12. glfredrick

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    Of course they are, for that is not the truth that is put forward by either God's Word or Calvinists. It is the logical party line spoken of Calvinists by their detractors, however. Wonder why, when they actually know better? Rebellion against God, perhaps?
     
  13. glfredrick

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    Thanks... Starting to look like our lives will be more complicated. My wife has torn tendons on both sides of her right knee (went out of joint over the weekend). Probably going to be surgery.

    My son is responding to treatments for his PLS. He can lift his arm, Praise God! Still not going to be good, for the rest of his days, and the treatments are horrifically expensive (bill for the first round was over $37,000.00). We are at the mercy of insurance and government because no one could possibly pay that sort of fee every couple of weeks for life.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    you've got allot of education Guy....come on up to NYC......we can but try to get you a job with the Banksters.....they seem to be the only ones making the money these days....Im told that most of them will given be given a 7% raise (for being thieves).

    My mother, God love her, dealt with my sister who was severely CP & with no husband for 48 years, Guy.....on a fixed salary. My sister was not supposed to live past 12 years. Somehow Guy, God provides to His faithful. Thats why I am Reformed today. As hard as I ran away, as much as I kicked at the goad, as evil as I was & purposefully tried to be, I could not get away. I was always drawn back.....mostly on my knees & praising Him.....and if thats not Grace, what is?
     
    #14 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2010
  15. MB

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    Actually there is no value in a forced Salvation. If man was forced then all men would be saved because there is no difference between the Jew or Greek. I believe God is irresistible to a point. But God doesn't want or need any man He has to force. I agree man doesn't choose God or Salvation. However He doesn't tie us up and dragg us off either. Your view of irresistible grace is extra biblical. It's a complete manufacturing of the original Catholic doctrine created by Augustine. There simply isn't any biblical proof of it in scripture.
    I'm not in the dark at all on it because I go by scripture not men like most Calvinist do. The doctrine of irresistible grace cannot be found in scripture.
    First he says you can resist and then says you can't. George Orwell called it double speak.
    Here it is again first God doesn't change our will and then He does.
    Don't you mean resistant to the truth.

    God can convince a man of Himself and God can convict a man of his sin but Salvation is more than just believing and conviction it's also surrendering to the righteousness of God. My conviction drove me to my knees but many I know of men who would not submit. They now hate God because the conviction comes on them every time they hear His sweet name mentioned. How do I know that? Because I was one who would not submit at first even though I knew all to well the truth of the gospel.

    MB
     
  16. glfredrick

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    Catholics are actually quite Arminian and almost semi-Pelagian in their doctrines of works needed to acquire salvation.

    And, again, neither Luke nor any other Calvinist (except perhaps one) is actually saying what YOU are saying about "enforced salvation." You totally miss how Calvinism works because you are hung up on what you've heard about it and are applying much human logic to the issue. Human logic is fine, and we all use it all the time, but no human logic trumps Scripture, and if anything Calvinists are very scriptural in their approach to God and salvation.


    Your words indicate otherwise. You are creating a straw man argument that is easy to knock down... I and others have point blank said that you are not describing our or Calvinist position, yet you persist in saying that you know better. If you do know better, then get on with proving it. Good luck with that...

    Until one is saved, they can resist. What is so double speak about that? Also, we've said that God draws and can change the mind, but that He does not do that by handcuffing, brainwashing, or coercing. He just gives us cause to change our mind and to Him, it is SO easy. He is GOD! As I said above, when He did it to me, He disarmed my anger and my rebellion in a couple simple "coincidental" steps. A word here, an act of grace there, and I was His. What is wrong -- or un-biblical -- with that?

    In fact, we ALL resist God until we are saved, when we (ought) no longer resist God at all. You believe that as well.

    How do you explain those who won't come to God despite the best arguments?

    Also, how would you explain it if they did -- finally -- come to God?

    You are actually living proof of what we are trying to say about God drawing one to Himself! You resisted, then when He convicted you --in grace and love -- you came. The only difference is that you see that YOU did that and I see that God did that. I think I'm right, for I've not seen evidence that sinful humans actually change their minds unless God gets involved!

    Additionally, who does the convicting? Is it not the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit, God?
     
  17. percho

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    Is it possible that Calvin did not understand and whoever was on the opposite side of Calvin also did not understand. IF
    The wages for sin is death did Adam pay the price for his sin?
    We want to qualify everything. Being a Christian isn't good enough we have to be a born again Christian. Death doesn't mean death it has to be spiritual of physical. Grace can't just mean grace. Why not?

    Because we qualify we think things in the word of God apply to us that I do not believe do.

    Please two or three tell me what this verse means. It's ok to agree with post above you or to disagree. I don't think we will have many disagrees.

    Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

    What is this baptism?
     
  18. jbh28

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    Did you even read what was written. Luke said that it does NOT means that God ties us up and drags us off.



    Most Calvinists I know go by the Scripture and not men. No need to use an ad hominem argument. You may disagree with the interpretation of Scripture, but saying they ignore Scripture is to misrepresent.
    Again, either you didn't read or just ignored what you read. As it was said "irresistible" doesn't mean "irresistible" in ALL things. You are trying to argue that "irresistible" means in all things right after being told that it isn't about ALL things. That's called a straw man.

    Who said that "God doesn't change our will."

    that included
     
  19. The Archangel

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    I just wanted to point out that Orwell never used the word "doublespeak." In 1984 there were varying concepts that lead up to the coining of the word "doublespeak," words like "newspeak" and "doublethink." But, no, Orwell is not credited with coining or using "doublespeak."

    Several article are available here, here, and here.

    Just being the language nut that I am.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  20. Dr. Bob

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    The Hornet Song has a good practical handle on the matter.

    When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God
    And grieved Him because of their sin;
    God sent along hornets to bring them to time,
    And to help His own people to win.
    The hornets persuaded them that it was best
    To go quickly and not to go slow;
    God did not compel them to go 'gainst their will,
    But He just made them willing to go

    Chorus:
    He does not compel us to go (No no)
    He does not compel us to go (O, no)
    He does not compel us to go 'gainst our will,
    But he just makes us willing to go.

    If a nest of live hornets were brought to this place
    And the creatures allow to go free,
    You would not need urging to make yourself scarce:
    You'd want to get out don't you see
    They would not lay hold and by force of their strength
    Throw you out of a window, O no!
    They would not compel you to go 'gainst your will,
    They'd just make you willing to go!
     
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