Is Israel an Evil Occupier?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by DrJamesAch, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch
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    Michael Brown, a former Jew now Christian apologist (also known for his debate with James White on Calvinism), shows the side of accusations against Israel that are not reported on the media, and shows the "other side" against accusations of anti-Israeli rhetoric. Israel is accused of being an unjust apartheid state (although there is never much mention of the apartheid states inspired by John Calvin).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxg1Yma4RqA
     
    #1 DrJamesAch, Jul 6, 2013
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  2. righteousdude2

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    If.....

    ....you live in a Muslim state, you would probably feel inclined to say Israel is an evil occupier! But so is America, Russia, Brittain, etc.
     
  3. saturneptune

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    No, Israel is not an evil occupier. The land is promised to them in Scripture. In fact, they should be in control of parts of modern day Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Iraq. Some even put it into an arc that includes a small portion of Iran, depending on which interpretation of the borders one accepts. Even with expanded borders, the map of Muslim countries compared to Israel is amazing. It is like looking at Rhode Island compared to the rest of the United States. This is God's promise, and from a Scriptural standpoint, how can anyone say they are an evil occupier?

    However, having said that, that is a totally separate issue from the national interests of the United States and the American tax dollar. We that served in the military did so to protect and defend the Constitution and the freedom and liberty of American citizens. The purpose of our Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines are for this purpose, to defend America.

    Why we stick our nose into other nation's affairs is beyond me, when those tax dollars could be used to rebuild our infrastructure say. So we decide to give billions of dollars in aid a year to Israel, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Oman, rebels in Syria, Jordan, and numerous other states. If they all disappeared tomorrow, the United States would still be the United States. I do not see any of these countries giving us money and equipment. Do you know why? Because it is not in their national interest to do so.

    As I said above, Israel should be controlling more land than they do. It is just not the job of the American tax payer or the Untied States to accomplish this goal. We have plenty of problems right here. Our goal in defense spending should be the vital national interests of the United States, not being the world's policeman.
     
  4. kyredneck

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    The link in the OP gives direction to interesting writings of a couple other authors, both Jewish:

    "The Transfer Agreement: The Dramatic Story of the Pact Between the Third Reich and Jewish Palestine is a book written by author Edwin Black, documenting the agreement between Zionist Jews and Adolf Hitler to help create a Jewish state in Palestine, in return for an end of a global boycott of Nazi Germany that had threatened to bring it down in its first days of power. ...This book documents the agreement between Adolf Hitler and an organization of Zionist Jews in 1933, which made Hitler "the chief economic sponsor of the state of Israel". A sweeping, worldwide economic boycott of Germany by Jews helped spur a deal between the Nazis and Zionists.[1] At that time, there were few Jews in Palestine, but from 1933 through 1936, 60,000 German Jews immigrated into the region, bringing with them $100,000,000 dollars ($1.6 billion in 2009 dollars)...."

    "THE SECULAR ZIONIST AGENDA FOR A JEWISH STATE" by Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons
    "It was a few years later at the 20th Zionist Congress held in Zurich in August 1937, that Weizmann spelled out more specifically what was meant by “selective Aliyah.”
    “I told the members of the Royal [Peel] Commission that six million Jews want to go on Aliyah. One of the members asked me ‘ Do you think you could bring all of them to Eretz Yisrael?’ On this I answered … that two million young people… we want to save. The old people will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They have already become like dust, economic and moral dust in this cruel world.”
     
    #4 kyredneck, Jul 6, 2013
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  5. Thomas Helwys

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    God required Israel to be just with its neighbors. Has Israel been just with the Palestinians?
     
  6. saturneptune

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    I am not so sure that they have. Dealings with Israel and their destiny is up to the Israelis and the Lord. How they deal with their neighbors is up to the citizens of Israel. Because one of the enemies of the United States is Muslim extremists does not obligate the United States to prop up Israel. That is our tax money, our nation, our Constitution, and our way of life. The policy of the United States in relation to other nations should be based as the Constitution says, either bilateral or multilateral treaties ratified by the Senate.

    Keeping the oil flowing is in our national interest. Propping up Israel is not. There are plenty of bridges in this country that need propping up.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    Yep!..........................
     
  8. Thomas Helwys

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    So, you consider apartheid just?
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Oh stop it you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever been to Israel? Do you know how many Israeli Moslems are living peacefully in Israel?
     
  10. Crabtownboy

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    Rev. I know a number of Arab Christians living in Israel. They would be highly insulted if you called them Israeli Christians as that would imply they are Jewish. I have heard their stories and they are not treated as equals by the Jewish authorities. In fact, they are treated pretty poorly. And yes, sad as it is, it is a type of apartheid.

    Rev. read The General's Son. by Miko Peled. This is a memoir of an Israeli general's son who came to see and to rebel against how badly all Arabs living in Israel and Palestine are treated.

     
    #10 Crabtownboy, Jul 6, 2013
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  11. Thomas Helwys

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    I know exactly what I am talking about. You have obviously not seen Palestinian areas entirely walled in and cut off. This is worse than Eastern Europe under communism.

    Do some research. Look at some pictures. A picture, as they say, is worth a thousand words.

    Isn't it funny that you always resort to telling someone they don't know what they're talking about when they puncture your balloon with the facts.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    And do you know why that is? Have you been to Israel? Do you know how many Israeli Moslems live in Israel peacefully?
     
  13. kyredneck

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    Thomas, the Rev has been to Israel and he never tires of letting others know that. He may have gotten a merit badge or patch or something for going, anyway he certainly claims bragging rights as if he's now some sort of authority. Maybe it was one of those vacations commonly known as 'mission trip'.
     
    #13 kyredneck, Jul 6, 2013
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  14. DrJamesAch

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    I would LOVE to talk to these people that you say are Arab Christians living in Israel that would be offended by the term "Arab Christian". The authorities don't even treat known terrorists suspects the way that you claim they treat Arab Christians.

    Being a Christian period is not popular in Israel, but that doesn't mean they are treated differently, and most Christians in Israel are view as being CATHOLIC, not JEWISH. Those who are Arab of whom are Christian understand the history of Israel, their relationship to Hagar, and the fact that Jesus was Jewish, and it's not an issue with them.

    Wherever you got your information from is completely bogus.
     
  15. DrJamesAch

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    The Islamic community certainly lives in greater peace here than the Jews do, that's for sure.
     
  16. DrJamesAch

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    So it's wrong to erect a walled garrison in certain areas where known terrorist organizations traffic weapons and drugs, some of which walls were erected by ARABS, and yet in America you have a wall that stretches through the entire southern border of the United States 3 times the size of our country?
     
  17. saturneptune

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    No it is not wrong if that is what Israel decides to do. They are a sovereign nation. Our southern border (of the United States) is the decision of the American people, and none of your concern. The two issues are not related.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    "Fifteen religious leaders representing many major faith groups in the country, have written a letter to Congress seeking to make U.S. military aid to Israel contingent upon its government’s “compliance with applicable U.S. laws and policies.”..."

    "The full text of the letter, dated Oct. 5:"

    Religious leaders ask Congress to condition Israel military aid on human rights compliance

    "Dear Member of Congress,

    We write to you as Christian leaders representing U.S. churches and religious organizations committed to seeking a just peace for Israelis and Palestinians. Our organizations have been deeply involved in this pursuit for decades, inspired by the call and promise of Jesus Christ who said, “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.”

    In response to our Christian call to be peacemakers, we have worked for decades to support both Israelis and Palestinians in their desire to live in peace and well-being. We have worked alongside our Palestinian Christian sisters and brothers to help build a peaceful and resilient Palestinian civil society by supporting hospitals, schools, clinics, and social service agencies. These ministries include cooperative efforts with Israelis and Palestinians as well as with Jews, Muslims, and other neighbors here in the United States. Through our presence in the region, and regular visits to our partners there, we see first-hand the impacts of the conflict on both Palestinians and Israelis and hear from them directly about the reality of their lives.

    Through this direct experience we have witnessed the pain and suffering of Israelis as a result of Palestinian actions and of Palestinians as a result of Israeli actions. In addition to the horror and loss of life from rocket attacks from Gaza and past suicide bombings, we have witnessed the broad impact that a sense of insecurity and fear has had on Israeli society.

    We have also witnessed widespread Israeli human rights violations committed against Palestinians, including killing of civilians, home demolitions and forced displacement, and restrictions on Palestinian movement, among others. We recognize that each party—Israeli and Palestinian—bears responsibilities for its actions and we therefore continue to stand against all violence regardless of its source. Our stand against violence is complemented by our commitment to the rights of all Israelis, as well as all Palestinians, to live in peace and security.

    It is this experience and these commitments that lead us to write to you today to express our grave concern about the deteriorating conditions in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories which threaten to lead the region further away from the realization of a just peace.

    Unfortunately, unconditional U.S. military assistance to Israel has contributed to this deterioration, sustaining the conflict and undermining the long-term security interests of both Israelis and Palestinians. This is made clear in the most recent 2011 State Department Country Report on Human Rights Practices covering Israel and the Occupied Territories, which details widespread Israeli human rights violations committed against Palestinian civilians, many of which involve the misuse of U.S.-supplied weapons.

    (Weapons in this instance include “crowd control” items such as tear gas. The Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2012 (P.L. 112-74) which is included in the US Foreign Military Financing regulations stipulates that “not later than 90 days after enactment of this act and 6 months thereafter, the Secretary of State shall submit a report to the Committees on Appropriations detailing any crowd control items, including tear gas, made available with appropriated funds or through export licenses to foreign security forces that the Secretary of State has credible information have repeatedly used excessive force to repress peaceful, lawful, and organized dissent.” )

    Accordingly, we urge an immediate investigation into possible violations by Israel of the U.S. Foreign Assistance Act and the U.S. Arms Export Control Act which respectively prohibit assistance to any country which engages in a consistent pattern of human rights violations and limit the use of U.S. weapons to “internal security” or “legitimate self-defense.”

    (While this letter focuses on US-Israel relations and the Israel-Palestine conflict, these are laws that we believe should be enforced in all instances regardless of location. All allegations regarding the misuse of US supplied arms should be investigated.)

    More broadly, we urge Congress to undertake careful scrutiny to ensure that our aid is not supporting actions by the government of Israel that undermine prospects for peace. We urge Congress to hold hearings to examine Israel’s compliance, and we request regular reporting on compliance and the withholding of military aid for non-compliance.

    In addition to specific rights violations, we see a troubling and consistent pattern of disregard by the government of Israel for U.S. policies that support a just and lasting peace. Specifically, repeated demands by the U.S. government that Israel halt all settlement activity have been ignored. Since 1967, every U.S. administration has decried Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories as obstacles to peace. Despite this stance, Israel continues to expand its settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, claiming territory that under international law and U.S. policy should belong to a future Palestinian state. The Oslo peace process, which began in 1993, was publicly promoted as leading Israelis and Palestinians to a just peace based on a two-state solution. Instead, since 1993, the number of Israeli settlers in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, has more than doubled. Rights violations resulting from Israeli settlement activity include separate and unequal legal systems for Palestinians and settlers, confiscation of Palestinian land and natural resources for the benefit of settlers, and violence by settlers against Palestinians.

    According to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem and the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, there has been a dramatic rise in settler attacks against Palestinians this year. They report that these attacks are often intended to drive Palestinians from areas the settlers wish to take over, and that Israeli authorities have failed to take significant action to stop the violence or hold the perpetrators accountable. We believe that these actions directly undermine peace efforts and threaten, rather than support, Israel’s long-term security interests.

    We want to be clear that we recognize that Israel faces real security threats and that it has both a right and a duty to protect both the state and its citizens. However, the measures that it uses to protect itself and its citizens, as in the case with any other nation, must conform to international humanitarian and human rights law.

    As Christian leaders in the United States, it is our moral responsibility to question the continuation of unconditional U.S. financial assistance to the government of Israel. Realizing a just and lasting peace will require this accountability, as continued U.S. military assistance to Israel -- offered without conditions or accountability -- will only serve to sustain the status quo and Israel’s military occupation of the Palestinian territories.

    We request, therefore, that Congress hold Israel accountable to these standards by making the disbursement of U.S. military assistance to Israel contingent on the Israeli government’s compliance with applicable U.S. laws and policies.

    As Israel is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid since World War II, it is especially critical for Israel to comply with the specific U.S. laws that regulate the use of U.S.-supplied weapons. We also encourage Congress to support inclusive, comprehensive, and robust regional diplomacy to secure a just and lasting peace that will benefit Israelis, Palestinians, and all the peoples of the region, and the world.

    With respect and gratitude, we offer you our prayers.

    In addition to Parsons, the letter was signed by Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; United Methodist Council of Bishops President Rosemarie Wenner; Peg Birk, transitional general secretary of the National Council of Churches; Shan Cretin, general secretary of the American Friends Service Committee; J. Ron Byler, executive director of the Mennonite Central Committee U.S.; and Alexander Patico, North American secretary for the Orthodox Peace Fellowship.

    Also, Diane Randall, executive secretary of the Friends Committee on Legislation; American Baptist Churches General Secretary A. Roy Medley; United Church of Christ General Minister and President Geoffrey A. Black; the Rev. Sharon Watkins, general minister and president of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ); the Rev. Julia Brown Karimu, president of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) Division of Overseas Ministries; the Rev. James A. Moos, executive minister for the United Church of Christ’s Wider Church Ministries; Eli S. McCarthy, justice and peace director for the Conference of Major Superiors of Men; and Kathy McKneely, acting director of the Maryknoll Office for Global Concerns."
     
  19. preachinjesus

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    1. We must recognize that the current political state of Israel is entirely different from the biblical Israel of the OT.

    2. The current political state of Israel has been visiting hardship and atrocities against the Arab peoples among them for decades. They are, also, victims of similiar treatments from militant groups.

    3. We should be able to criticize and question any action of state without worry of some kind of theological disputation. There are some actions that are wrong regardless of how one views point #1.
     
  20. DrJamesAch

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    Notice that the letter was generated by liberal members of the Presbyterian Church USA, with their GAY RIGHTS LEADER Gradye Parsons. What these groups consider a violation of human rights is starkly different from what a legitimate view of "human rights" violations really are.

    Israel has a right, just as much as America or any other nation, to defend ourself. Muslim clerics have made it clear that they are UNWILLING to accept a 2 State Resolution (which I am opposed to anyway), and NONE of our neighboring states have either acknowledged that Israel is a legitimate state, nor that we even have a RIGHT TO EXIST, on ANY land in the world, let alone in Israel.

    What the liberal media shows (of which YOU QUOTED) are the REACTIONS of the IDF, AFTER HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AL QAEDA et al, HAVE ALREADY ATTACKED US. This would be akin to the media showing constant footage of America dropping a nuclear bomb on Japan, and NEVER SHOWING JAPAN ATTACKING PEARL HARBOR.

    The PBUSA has just as much of an agenda as what they accuse Israel of. They have particularly been influential in the "gay rights" policies adopted in Tel Aviv and Israel as a whole.

    Israel has already given up land that we rightly won back during wars in 1948, 1967, and 1973, at the expense of over several hundred thousand of our own citizens being homeless and depriving Israel of 15% of it's economic income from Gaza. BUT IT'S NEVER ENOUGH. Israel is the size of Rhode Island in the US, and yet somehow, we are the cause of all the turmoil in the world for the last 1800 years before we even reoccupied this land WHICH WAS PREDICTED IN SCRIPTURE. Would the US concede to demands if the Indians wanted land back that the US kicked them out of?

    We build homes for our people ON OUR OWN LAND and some liberal church writes a petition that our construction of homes is "disturbing"?? Are you kidding me? And arms trades? How many of those "arms trades" WENT TO THE US?? And yet the US still doesn't have an answer over the Fast and Furious gun trades that killed a border patrol agent.

    There have been NO ATTACKS on "Palestinians" in this country. Any so-called "attacks" were military responses that were directed at TERRORIST groups hiding behind civilians. Does this petition complain about the US dropping not one but TWO nuclear bombs on 2 cities that contained thousands of innocent people that had nothing to do with the war? At least Israel had the decency to WARN citizens that they were attempting to target terrorists, and even WHERE they were targeting them to give any Palestinian citizens a chance to "get out of the way".

    Crap like this "report" generated by a liberal church with a gay agenda is no different than the rhetoric spewed by the Third Reich and is preposterous propaganda.
     
    #20 DrJamesAch, Jul 6, 2013
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