is it allowed to tell a lie if you dont want to hurt somebody else?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by JimboJones, Nov 7, 2004.

  1. JimboJones

    JimboJones
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    what do you think?
    I mean it's not good but sometimes you cannot say the truth cause it would hurt other people. :confused:
     
  2. NateT

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    I don't think that lying is allowed. Now, do I practice that? No not really, more times than not, I lie in place of someone's feelings.

    The reason is this, if lying is wrong, it is wrong all the time.

    The issue is hard because we are to "love our neighbor as ourself" and it feels like if we say something that could hurt someone we are not being loving.

    We don't have to say anything at all, we can always remain silent.

    Also, sometimes when we speak the truth in love people will be hurt, but the fact that they are hurt does not mean that we weren't loving them.
     
  3. JimboJones

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    For example I was asked to come to a meeting.
    But I really didn't want to because of different reasons. And then I said I don't have time.
    I could not have told the person: Hey, I dont want to come, okay? Bye.
    I mean I couldn't do this. This is what I mean.
    I didn't feel good not telling the truth but what should I have done? I saw no other way.
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    "Speaking THE TRUTH in love"

    It is never right to lie.
     
  5. dianetavegia

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    I've told this before. A new neighbor was walking down the street pushing a stroller. I went out and met the mom, and then went around to the front of the stroller with 'Oh what a .....' coming out of my mouth. All babies are beautiful, aren't they? Well this was a horribly disfigured child with CP and mental retardation. I was quickly able to put 'big girl and oh what a mouthful of teeth you have sweetie!' And then asked how old she was. NEVER would I have told the truth and said what a horribly shocking looking child the woman had! EVEN if it meant I were lying.
     
  6. JimboJones

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    Yes.There are situations where you cannot say the truth.
    Imagine somebody asks you if you think he or she is beautiful and you don't think so. Then what are you supposed to say? Something like: Well, in the eyes of God every human is beautiful?
    This is like a punch in the face cause it basically means:"No, you're not beautiful to me."

    @ C4K

    If I had known the person better I would have told her that I don't like travelling and that this is the reason I won't come, but I dont know what he would have thought of me. He would have thought I'm a weirdo. This is why I said I dont have time.
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    The scriptures make it abundantly clear regarding God's attitude toward lying.

    The following is the clearest example:
    Ephesians 4:25 "Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."

    Not that I am by any means perfect.
     
  8. JimboJones

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    :(

    < feels bad now
     
  9. dianetavegia

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    When a four year old brings me their picture of Noah's Ark and the boat is pink and all the animals are scribbled purple... I tell them how pretty it is. In a sense, I'm lying, but as a person who loves children and wants to encourage them to color and learn about Noah's Ark ... it IS beautiful to me in THAT way. Still, semantics... I'm lying.
     
  10. Seth3

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    Hey Jim,

    Want the truth? All men are liars God only Is true. Do I lie, yes truthfully. Accoding to the letter I lie, thats the Truth and God says all men are liars so I agree with Him on this.

    Speaking the truth in love is not seen in being "pretentious" about our sins. If we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners.

    The Pharisee in the Temple is a great example of this. He prayed thus WITH HIMSELF SAYING (((GOD))) I'm so glad I'm not like other men like sinners or tax collectors or like this publican here. He thought himself above others claiming to be without fault by means of the law.

    Do I want to, no the law is Good... right? Its not good to steal or murder or covet etc, we'd agree together. But sometimes you may covet or may lie.

    For example, If my mother in law made a dinner and it was just awful (truthfully) She would ask me how I liked it, I would lie not wanting to hurt her feelings (love is not rude or hurtful) I'd say it was delightful.

    If Nazis came to kill someone who has taken refuge in my home. I would not try to salvage "my righteousness" (which is as filthy rags before God) I would LIE (darn right I would) and I'd send those Nazis in another direction because I'm loving and protecting someones life as precious.

    If my daughter is convinced theres a monster in her closet and I cannot convince her otherwise. I tried putting a little water in a spray bottle and I did tell her that this would keep the monsters away if she would spray the room before she went to bed... It worked.

    So I'm sure I could get nailed or judged by someone sitting in judgement on the law but I am being TRUTHFUL TO YOU in admitting I DO LIE. See how that works?

    Someone might say, "no not I, I never lie" but I don't want to be untruthful (lie) to you and say I don't lie so who is being truthful see?

    I'm speaking the truth to you and putting off lying in hypocricy.

    Just thought you might want to know this.


    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  11. gb93433

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    Is it okay to lie to Satan?
     
  12. Seth3

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    Actually... your suppose to AGREE with your ADVERSARY. What do you think? lol!

    Though our concience may defend us or accuse us this is a good thing.

    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  13. dianetavegia

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    For whosoever shall keep the WHOLE law, and yet offend in ONE point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10
     
  14. Dave Bussard

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    In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitue considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction (James 2:16)?

    And what did Rahab do in between giving lodging to the spies and sending them off in a different direction? She lied:

    But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, the men left. I don't know which way they went (Joshua 2:4-5)."

    Yet because of her faith, which involved hiding the men and sneaking them out on their way (deeds proving her faith), she was considered righteous (Hebrews 11:31)! Her lie had everything to with the situation, and I believe it was the right thing to do. I'm not so sure that lying is ALWAYS wrong.

    Dave
     
  15. Seth3

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    Dave I agree,

    I see the Pharisees taking what money they were going to "honor God with" and not honor their own parents with it when their parents needed help. Heres where they set aside the commandment of God for their tradition. Thinking that "mercy" or giving did not count outside the Temple where they did everything to be seen of men and the praise of men. Great verse actually.

    Or the Pharisees knowing it was unlawful to put someone to death so they needed to hand Christ over to someone who could. Jesus said the one who handed him over was guilty, even though they did not break the letter of it they broke the Spirit of it.

    Very often we can get pulled into the "leaven" of the Pharisees for "appearances sake" and to recieve their praise for perhaps "the most spiritual answer" and in doing this we then become hypocrits. Peter after all the years in the Lord was lead away by it and Paul had to confront him about it you know?

    A Good example (contrary to the one above) Lets reverse the situation with the Nazis.

    Lets say the woman whose home the faimly went to for refuge was more concerned about her OWN righteousness (by the law) if the Nazis came to her asking Have you seen this family. She would then think in herself, "Lying is against the law and I must not lie to stay righteous before God" so she turns the family in to be killed. She thus by the letter of the law KILLED... See? The act of keeping the law was not in the interest of others or in the love of God but the love of Self.

    She thus broke the Spirit of the law in order to keep the letter of it.

    Its part of being wise as serpents but in our hearts incocent as doves.


    God Bless

    Seth3
     
  16. billwald

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    God misquoted Sarah to Abraham for the sake of peace in the family. (Mamre incident)
     
  17. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    God used liars in the Old Testament - he also used polygamists (even calling one a man after God's one heart).

    Today, Christians are in a whole different situation. Today we are in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ is not a liar.

    There is no reason for Christians lying today. Absolutely none. The New Testament is clear. There are a plethora of NT scriptures telling us not to lie.

    The key was quoted earlier - "Speak the truth in love." When a four year old brings you a terrible colouring paper they can be praised for the bright colours, straight lines, or whatever is good about the paper. When you see an "ugly" child you can talk about how precious the child is, or reply as Diane mentioned above. It is not semantics to speak the truth in love.
     
  18. Paul of Eugene

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    Just to point out a technicality, in the 10 commandments, it does not say "thou shalt not lie" but "thou shalt not bear false witness." I picture the true meaning of the commandment to stand up in court and lie to the detriment of justice. I don't consider Rahab's action concealing the spies to be a violation of this commandment. I don't have a problem with playing a board game where one attempts to deceive the other player, all in fun, either.
     
  19. John3v36

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    While I certainly can't claim perfection of behavior in this area, I also can't bring myself to conclude that it is ever right to do wrong. I had a discussion on this very issue with a friend of mine in the context of an Intervarsity meeting years ago as an undergraduate. He felt that it was O.K. to be somewhat dishonest at times in order to avoid hurting people's feelings unnecessarily. An example he used was the situation where a lady with an ugly hat asks someone what he/she thinks of her hat. The truthful answer would be "I think it's really ugly." The pleasing answer would be "I think it looks very nice on you." Obviously there are other non answers like "It really sets you apart." In summary, this friend of mine finally ended up making the following statement which I believe is the only consistent conclusion he could have come to. He said, "I believe even the Lord Jesus would have lied on this occasion." This is a consistent statement for him to have made because every Christian's goal should be to be more like Christ (1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.). Even Paul encourages us to follow Christ by following him as he emulates Him (1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.). Thus for the Christian to conclude that it is O.K. for a Christian to do wrong that good may prevail that same Christian MUST conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ would have done so too since we are to emulate Him. However, as consistent a statement as this may have been for my friend to make, it bothered me immensely. Probably the main reason it bothered me so much is that it is, in fact, a denial of the deity of Christ. In Hebrews 6:17-18, it clearly indicates that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie. If Christ can lie (on occasion) He clearly must not be God. That is a conclusion that is unacceptable to any Christian. A tiny selection from the overwhelming number of other passages that deal with the truthfulness and sinlessness of Christ and of God are as follows:
    -2 Corinthians 5:21 who knew no sin
    -1 Peter 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
    -1 John 3:5 in him is no sin.
    -John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life

    Now let's discuss some of the other examples that were brought up. I would like to mention that my friend and I also discussed some of these same examples on the aforementioned occasion.

    He mentions the harlot Rahab and points out that she received blessing from the Lord for her actions and is later commended in the New Testament for the same. Notice however that it was her faith in God and protection of Israel's spies that are commended -- not the deception with which she did it. God is merciful and gracious to bless the faith and good works that He puts within us even though, too often, we mix our own deception and sin therewith. It's probably a little like the way you would commend one of your children who does an act that is praise worthy even though, perhaps, not all of his or her motivations in doing that act were totally pure. Psalms 130:3 says "If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" I believe God was commending Rahab's faith driven desires and was refraining from marking her iniquities. This is further validated by the fact that she herself was a harlot and was referred to as such in Hebrews 11. Does this mean that God condoned her harlotry along with her deception? God forbid!

    Your friend next mentions Luke 14 and Mark 3 and seems to imply that Jesus broke the Sabbath law by healing on the Sabbath. I would contend that what Jesus broke was the Pharisaical additions to the law and not the Sabbath law as delivered by God. The Pharisees had added hundreds of their own rules by way of interpreting the law as delivered by God to Moses. Just because the Pharisees said that their man-made rules of interpretation were equivalent to God's law doesn't mean that they were correct. In fact Jesus pointed out to them that He and not they is the Lord of the Sabbath. They had no right to make the interpretations they did. He proceeded to show them the correct interpretation. He did not violate the real God given law at all by doing so. Had he done so, he would have been denying the authority of His Father and we know that it is impossible for God to deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13). Thus to argue that Christ demonstrates the breaking of one of God's laws in order to obey a higher law is an in-valid argument because Christ did not break any of God's laws in what He did as is made abundantly clear in the following passage: "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10 ).

    Finally, your friend poses the following hypothetical question:

    "You are living in Nazi Germany. You have several Jews hidden in your house. The authorities come to the door and ask if you knew where the Jews were hiding.
    Do you break one of the Ten Commandments and lie to the SS or do you tell on them? "

    The framers of such a question apparently are trying to back us into a corner and get us to admit that it certainly would be wrong to "tell on" the Jews that are being hidden. Once they get you to admit this they feel that they have cornered you into a position whereby your only way out is to lie and say you don't know where they are hiding. However, this "only way out" ignores the power of God and His ability to honor truthfulness. In fact I was once told that in the book The Hiding Place by Corrie ten Boom this exact situation did arise. The Nazis came in and asked Corrie ten Boom where the Jews were hiding. As it turns out they were hiding under the table at that moment. Corrie ten Boom, trusting that God could protect his people even if the truth were told, said to the Nazis (with smile on her face) "They're under the table." The Nazis thought she was mocking them and refused to look there for fear of making fools of themselves by believing what they were sure was just a sarcastic comment. God used their own pride against them and Corrie ten boom refused to do wrong so that good could prevail. Instead she trusted God to bring right out of right.

    In summary, I think that this whole question is answered by Paul's questions (and resounding answers) in his letter to the Romans. In Romans 6:1-2 he asks, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" He asks a similar (and perhaps even more relevant to this discussion) question in Romans 3:5-8, "But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."

    Paul makes it clear that the philosophy that it is right to do wrong to accomplish righteous ends is "damnable."

    It is damnable because it substitutes finite human wisdom regarding the natural outcomes of our acts for the omnipotent wisdom of God who commands, "Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter 1:16). This holy God truly knows the end from the beginning (in contrast to ourselves when we just think we do - Isaiah 46:10) and He is able to over-rule the hearts of men if we just obey Him and trust Him for the results.
     
  20. Seth3

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    Anything not of FAITH is sin.

    Speaking the truth in love... I LIE.

    I will continue to lie (truthfully) if ever faced with situations such as hiding people to be killed by others, or concerning bad dinners, or monsters in closets of children.

    Truthful lips speak against the Truth Himself saying , "we sin not". So we cannot do anything against the truth but only for Him because we believe all men to be liars and God True alone.

    Its not those who say I never lie that are justified but those who SPEAK TRUTHFULLY admitting they do. But with the examples I shared I believe God justified Rehab he justifies us if done in love.

    In love one would take a family in to hide them from being killed and by faith in the goodness of the Lord would sacrifice their own righteousness (as if I were justified by it anyway)in love to save another (sounds like someone we know).

    Faith would say, "The Lord is my righteousness" and He judgeth the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    The Pharisees knew by the law they could NOT kill anyone so they HANDED CHRIST OVER. Jesus did say the one who "handed Him over" was guilty even though they did not commit the act.

    Same thing with the family hiding them from the Nazis, although I would have my hands clean in my own eyes because I committed no act in handing them over I would be guilty. Christ shows this.


    God Bless

    Seth3
     

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