Is it always God's will to heal?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Oct 14, 2012.

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Is it always God's will to heal us of sickness?

Poll closed Nov 13, 2012.
  1. Yes, it is always God's will to heal.

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  2. No, it is not always God's will to heal.

    90.0%
  3. Other

    0 vote(s)
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  4. I don't know.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    The Charismatic doctrine of physical healing says that (1) healing is in the atonement, and (2) it is always God's will to heal, and never His will for us to be sick. There is already a thread about (1), so I'll concentrate on (2).

    First of all, Charismatics argue that Paul's "thorn in the flesh" (2 Cor. 12:7) is not physical illness. Let's take a look at that. If it can be proven that Paul's thorn was physical illness, then the greatest Christian in the Bible was sick and not healed, and their argument is gone. That is why they fight so hard on this. Bill Johnson can even be heard on Youtube saying that if you believe Paul's thorn was sickness, you have a false Gospel and are cursed according to Galatians!

    In 1 Cor. 12:9, Paul refers to the thorn as the Greek word astheneia. This word is very clearly sickness when used about sick people being healed by Christ in: Luke 5:15, 8:2, 13:11-12. Luke was a doctor, using a normal word for sickness. It was used in the same way in John 5:5, of Lazarus sick to death in John 11:4. Paul healed people with astheneia in Acts 28:9 (again Dr. Luke using the word). Paul himself uses the word of physical weakness (which was not healed), "weakness of the flesh," in Gal. 4:3. Again, Paul used the word of Timothy's stomach sickness for which he was to drink wine, a medicine in those days, in 1 Tim. 5:23.


    The word is used 23 times in the NT. Of those times, I just listed 9 times, almost half, where the word clearly meant sickness. Of the other times, some refer to physical weakness, and some are ambiguous. However, since Luke the doctor uses the term for sickness 5 times, I think a primary meaning is "sickness." Other times the word is clearly physical weakness (Rom. 6:19). So the core meaning is of the word is physical weakness, with a meaning in context often of sickness.


    Now, Matt. 8:17 is a prime verse used by Charismatics to try to prove that physical healing is in the atonement. That verse uses two words for sickness, astheneia (infirmities) and nosos. Nosos is clearly sickness, but this is an example of a parallel in Hebrew poetry in Isaiah, meaning that in context astheneia means sickness also. The Hebrew word in Isaiah is choliy, clearly meaning sickness. If it means sickness in Isaiah, then with the inspired translation in Matt. 8:17, it must also mean sickness.


    The upshot? When Charismatics use Matt. 8:17 to prove that healing is in the atonement, they must also say that Paul's thorn is a sickness, or prove themselves wrong in Matt. 8:17.

    But there are other proofs that it is not always God's will to heal. The above-mentioned case of Timothy's illness is one proof. Paul did not scold Timothy for not having enough faith to be healed, he said, "Take some medicine."

    I can quote some Greek lexicons on Paul's thorn. And there are other passages that can be brought in, but I'm out of time. More tomorrow morning, maybe.
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    I look at it like this and maybe I'm being overly simple.

    It is ALWAYS God's will to magnify Himself. Sometimes He is magnified in a natural or supernatural healing of someone from affliction. For example - all of the miraculous healings of Jesus.

    Other times He is magnified in the life a person who bears the affliction with attributes that magnify God: grace, dignity, selflessness, patience, perseverance, and not allowing the affliction to separate him/her from obedience to God.

    So, no, I do not believe that it is God's will to always remove the physical, emotional, and mental afflictions that burden people.
     
  3. Aaron

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    Paul applies "Thorn in the flesh" to a wide array of distress: infirmity (physical disability/sickness), reproach, need, persecution, etc. (vs. 10). It's very clear, but you will never convince a charismaniac.
     
  4. plain_n_simple

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    Always wondered about that. I believe it was satanic attacks, as FF Bosworth explained.
     
  5. DHK

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    2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.


    Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
    26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
    27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
    28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
    29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation:
    30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.

    1 Timothy 5:23
    Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
     
  6. Van

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    Why would God always want to remove our infirmities if as Paul says, God's power to make us complete, mature, lacking nothing, is demonstrated through our infirmities. 2 Corinthians 12:9-10.
     
  7. plain_n_simple

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    That view is incorrect. Jesus said to destroy the works of Satan.

    Have you ever seen a supernatural miracle when God heals? It's amazing!

    Have you ever prayed for someone and watched them get healed? It's awesome!

    Most have not and could care less. This church generation is about self gratification. How can God make my day better...etc
     
  8. Van

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    Hi P&S, the referenced scripture is clear. To say God is mistaken seems shaky at best. To say God does not always desire to heal does not equate with God never desires to heal. Nothing wrong with telling God our hearts desires concerning the health and welfare of our loved ones, but to presume we know what the will of God is for the circumstance we are praying for is like testing God.

    No need to present an holier than thou argument, it is a given that I am the least among the brethren.
     
  9. plain_n_simple

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    I did not say God was mistaken. The view of Paul's thorn is mistaken. Jesus always healed, and He only did what He saw His Father do. Thank you for your opinion.
     
  10. Tom Butler

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    Actually, Matthew 8:17 disproves healing in the atonement. Look at the context of the surrounding verses. Matthew, led by the Spirit, said this verse fulfilled Isaiah 53:4. So just exactly when this take place. In Capernaum, in the evening. The fulfillment took place during Jesus' life, not in his death. Matthew, the inspired writer, said so.

    Therefore, there is nothing in Isaiah 53 which deals with physical sickness. It deals with atonement for sin.
     
  11. DHK

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    Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    (Geneva) For I count that the afflictions of this present time are not worthy of the glory, which shalbe shewed vnto vs.

    Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    All of creation is under the curse. Until Christ comes we will endure sickness, as will all of creation. We wait for the redemption of our bodies. We wait for the curse upon this earth and upon our bodies to be lifted. Some day we will receive new resurrection bodies that will never get sick again. I await that day.
     
  12. mont974x4

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    I don't think the problem is the healing, so much as the timing. The health/wealth people, especially word of faith (wof) folks, insist that the healing is supposed to be when we want it. God will heal, but in His time.

    Now, if we look at their fave passage from Isaiah 53 we see the context is transgression and iniquity...these are classes of sin. The word healed means to be made whole. In Christ, because of the cross and His bearing it all for us, we are made whole. We are whole because our sin problem is solved....whether we are blind, mute, missing a hand, or suffer from any manner of illness or hardship.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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  14. plain_n_simple

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    John Piper IS a heresy
     
  15. John of Japan

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    I'll have to mull this one over, Tom. Is. 53:2-3 is talking about Christ's life, not his death. So a case could be made that v. 4 is also talking about the life of Christ, then the prophecy of the death of Christ starts in v. 5.
     
  16. awaken

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    2 Corinthians 12:7: "To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger [angelos] of Satan, to torment me."
    2 Corinthians 12:8: "Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me."
    2 Corinthians 12:9: "But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me."
    2 Corinthians 12:10: "That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

    Paul tells us exactly what it was: It was a "messenger of Satan" (2 Corinthians 12:7). Paul didn't use a Greek word for sickness or disease in this verse, but instead he specifically used the Greek word for "angel," and he specifically said that it was a demonic angel.
     
    #16 awaken, Oct 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2012
  17. Van

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    Yes you did, you said God did not demonstrate his power through our infirmity. You suggested He would remove it rather than use it. Either explain how the passage says something different or you are simply claiming Paul was wrong.

    And do not change the subject to Paul's thorn in the flesh. We are talking about infirmities in 2 Corinthians 12:9-10.

    Did Jesus always heal? Nope. In John 5:3 we see Jesus walk past a "multitude of sick people" but Jesus only healed a "certain man" indicating the purpose of the specific healing was to teach part of the gospel of Christ.
     
  18. 12strings

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    First of all, John Piper is a person, not a belief or teaching, so he cannot himself be a heresy.

    Second, you or others may be interested to know that John Piper is not a ceasationist when it comes to sign gifts...but does recognize that not all who have faith and desire to be healed are healed.
     
  19. 12strings

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    I would like to see those who believe it is always God's will deal with the other illnesses referenced on this thread, the man paul left sick in another town. Timothy's sicknesses...Job...the people Jesus walked past.

    It doesn't matter what paul's thorn in the flesh was...there are other sick people in the bible who were not healed.
     
  20. John of Japan

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    You are showing ignorance of Greek semantics with your opinion. The Greek word aggelos does not always mean angel or demon. It was used for John the Baptist in Matt. 11:10 and Mark 1:2 and Luke 7:27. Was John the Baptist an angel? Of course not.

    So the word in our passage must be interpreted in context. What was the messenger? It is very clearly sickness, judging by Luke the doctor's use of the word that Paul is using. Therefore, "messenger" of Satan is a metaphorical usage. All the Bible versions translate "messenger of Satan" rather than "angel of Satan," meaning they disagree with you.

    But if you wish to prove the Charismatic doctrine that healing is always God's will, you have a lot more to deal with. What about when Paul told Timothy about Timothy's stomach ailment.
     

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