Is it bad to go to Church on Sundays, why do some now say its Saturday only ?

DonnaA:
"Equally, when you insist christians can only go to church on Saturnday, you are saying they need to observe one day over and above another, as you stated about those who go to church on Sunday, the Lord's day.
Pagan? Saturnday isn't pagan?"

GE:
I'll seize this opportunity as an exercise in patience; not as an exercise in exegesis.

I do not insist christians should go to church on Saturnday. Pagans make of Saturday Saturday, and use it for mirth to drown the day's bad luck --- as they thought.

I am not saying Christians need to observe one day over and above another; God says His Sabbath, the Lord's Day (HEREIN lies its distinction!) should be observed if we are believers in Him. But more, Jesus invites us to His Sabbath-rest - if we have been graced Jesus having given us Himself our Salvation-Rest), and Paul encourages us in it's observance and tells us not to be beguiled of our reward in Christ or be judged and condemned for feasting Sabbaths'-Feast!

 

Bound:
"If, therefore, they who were under the older dispensation came into a new hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord's day, on which day also our life rose through him and through his death,... how shall we be able to live apart from him, of whom even the prophets were disciples, and waited for him in the spirit as their teacher? (St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX, italics mine).

This epistle is extremely important for any of us who really want to know on what day the early Church worshiped. When St. Ignatius talks about those who had been "under the older dispensation" and "who came into a new hope," to whom does he refer? Clearly, he means the first Jewish Christians, the ones on whom the "new hope" first dawned.

This is made doubly obvious by the fact that Ignatius himself was converted in the middle of the first century. So when he speaks of his predecessors in the Faith, St. Ignatius can only be referring to the very first generation of Christians. And one of the central features of their faith was that they were "no longer keeping the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord's day"! Ignatius also makes it plain that the "Lord's day" is Sunday, the day on which "our life rose through him.""

GE:
Ignatius wrote to second century Christians, true. But observe he reprimands as well as encourages them by referring them for true worship of God, to the Old Testament prophets, whom he calls Christians! Ignatius SO, tells the Christians of his own time, THEY - the old Christian prophets, THEY did not 'Sabbatize', that is, kept Sabbath because of the Law merely, as if it would merit them salvation; no, THEY "Kept the Sabbath because of / according to the Lord's LIFE" (kata kyriakehn dzoheen). I have referred you to this before in this same thread. You obviously did not take it for of any worth or weakness; I could just as well have said nothing, so much respect you have for anything not your own opinion. (I think you are merely posting stuff from some writing of yours just so, here.)
In Ignatius it is the greatest fallacy there is any suggestion to the First Day / Sunday. The association in Magnesians is with the Seventh Day Sabbath from every angle of approach.
But you are right in that these references give the undeniable indication of which day the Christians worshipped on: It was on the Sabbath, "NOT SABBATIZING, BUT ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S LIFE (KEEPING SABBATH)" Irrefutable, and irrefutably against the Sunday-humbug of Christian tradition!

 

Bound:
"Ignatius also makes it plain that the "Lord's day" is Sunday, the day on which "our life rose through him.""

GE:
We are going round in circles.
You PRESUME the Lord's Day is Sunday, then by thus presuming, 'prove' Sunday is the Lord's Day. I give up!

You are perfectly right though the Lord's day is the Lord's Day because it is the weekday - a 'creational' reality - on which the Lord by resurrection from the dead became Lord, and so the day of his resurrection, became the Lord's Day.

I fully agree, there is NO other 'proof' than Christ's resurrection for the Lord's Day being the Lord's Day. So everything comes down to one factor: On which day of the week did Christ rise from the dead? And I have ALWAYS been saying, it is not Mt28:1 only that tells us; it is, and must be, the whole of Scriptures. So that, where one read in Genesis 2 that God on the Seventh Day FINISHED all the works of God, or, that He rested, or, that God blessed, or that God sanctified, God did neither had He not done it in Christ through Christ and for making Christ, Lord of the Day of God's thus finishing and resting and blessing and sanctifying --- and nohow even in Christ, but until God had raised Him from the dead. The whole Bible knows no 'Sabbath' or 'Seventh Day' other than THIS day of Christ "the Lord's, Day".

 

Bound:
"First of all, the fact that Jesus calls Himself "Lord even of the Sabbath" in no way implies that Saturday is the day denoted by the idiom "the Lord's day." Let me ask a simply question. What would Jesus say if we asked Him, "Are you also Lord of Monday, or are you only the Lord of Saturday?" I think Jesus might very well answer, "The Son of Man is Lord even of Monday." The truth is, He is Lord of all days! So, if "the Lord's day" means only "the day of which Jesus is Lord," then any day of the week is as much "the Lord's day" as Saturday is. Matthew 12:8, then, does nothing at all to help us understand what St. John means by that particular phrase."

GE
I cannot help but think your observation is lax and irresposible.

Yes, Jesus is Lord of all days, but not all days are "the Lord's Day" - as i have shown many times now; it doesn't say 'The Lord's days'.

Even in Jesus' words in this text He does imply He is the Lord of all days, by exceptionally being the Lord of the Sabbath, "Therefore (don't ingore this word; it brings into play the specific 'Sabbath'-dispute of the context) the Son of Man ('Exalted Being' - already an allusion to Christ's resurrection) is Lord: EVEN of the Sabbath!" ('KAI' s.) For Christ to be Lord of all days is good and ordinary; but to be the Lord of EVEN the Sabbath; that is exceptional because of the day being so out of the ordinary! Again, why is the day so extraordinary? Because Christ the Son of Man "MADE the Sabbath" so extraordinary - another allusion to Christ's resurrection on the Sabbath Day.

People who bring Romens 14 into play here just don't know what they are doing; they are doing very bad exegesis.

 

Bound:
"The fact is, "the Lord's day" in early Church writings always refers to Sunday."

GE:
"The fact' is"? How is it, 'fact'?

"in early Church writings"? Where does 'early' begin and where does it end?

"always refers to Sunday"? 'Always'? How many times needed to make 'always'? See previous posts - not seen, or ignored, or unable to answer?

 

Bound:
"sabbatarians insist that when he uses the expression "the Lord's Day" (Revelation 1:10). St. John must mean the Sabbath. As I mentioned above, they support their claim by invoking Jesus' statement that He is "Lord even of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8). But this argument cannot pass muster."

GE:
True, bringing these Scriptures together, won't serve for direct 'proof', although all implications may end up to the effect.

I personally believe John is talking of the Sabbath. He is 'in the spirit', which means that he worshipped, in congregation with the universal Church away from whom he was in exile. He joined the Church spiritually and in worship. It implies he met with them on the Sabbath which was the only day the Church came together to worship on, according to EVERY information that is found in the New Testament. "I John, who also am your brother and companion". Where were John's companions? They were companions in prayer and worship! "for the Word of God"; "for the testimony of Jesus Christ" --- What is Church? "Church", is for, and Church is where, and Church is WHEN 'brothers', 'companion', for to receive the Word of God and for the witness of Jesus Christ. Everything suggests the Sabbath's observance.
Then many other aspects are playing a role, e.g., see the emphasis on the number 7 in the context, and 'last', comparing John's Gospel, and the 'last day' there. Not direct things, but convincing non the less THE SABBATH BEING SO TAKEN FOR GRANTED in the NT.

 

The whole context of Rv1:10 suggests Christ's resurrection from the dead, read the whole, then also texts like verse 18. No, it's impossible not to recognise the close nexus between Christ's resurrection and the Day of the Lord in Rv1. Then the arguments the day of Jesus' resurrection was the Sabbath Day as i have explained, come under scrutiny.

 

GE:
Christianity has not yet begun thinking on the Sabbath.

Ed Sutton:
"Hogwash! I'd say Paul addressed this nearly 2000 years ago."

GE:
I'm talking about rotten 'Christianity'.


Ed Sutton:
"This is an 'open issue', of one's own persuasion ..."

GE:
An 'issue' "of one's own persuasion", is no "'open issue'"; it is one of narrow-mindedness conceitedness.

Ed Sutton:
"I have no intention of letting another judge me over this, simply because Scripture says not to let his happen."

GE:
Are you now talking about your quoted Scriptures that deal with the 'issue' of righteousness by faith?

Well then, what has that to do with the 'issue' of conceited Christianity that has not yet started to duely think on the 'Sabbath-issue'?

 

By the way, Who judges you and in what?

And why is it you by your jittering look so judged?

 

It doesn't matter who said this, it is such a pithy remark:
"Christ was Jewish, we are not, we are christians. Completely different."

When I studied Galatians and was in debate with Eric Bolden, through long and struggling contemplation and argument, I had to accept Eric's viewpoint for correct, and mine for incorrect, at this very point: Christ was Jewish, we are not, we are christians.
Paul reckoned just the opposite. He in Galatians argues that he as for being a Jew under the law, in fact was found under bondage just like the pagan heathens - there was no difference between him and them. Paul the Jew had to become a real lost and hopeless pagan before God in his mercy could save his soul.

 

With apology to Bound:

From the heights of Mt. Sinai, God commanded that the seventh day be kept as a holy day of rest, commemorating His creation of the world. From the depths of the Red Sea, God commanded that the seventh day be kept as a holy day of rest, commemorating His redemption of His Chosen People. From the depths of hell, God commanded that the seventh day be kept as a holy day of rest, commemorating His resurrection of His Chosen One.
So the question is raised, 'why don't all Christians worship on it?'
And my answer, must be, They have been fooled.

 

Do you worship on Shabbat? Do you have services on Friday evening? Do nothing on saturday and then end it on the evening of saturday? Do you celebrate Easter on Passover or on the Roman Calander? Do you wear four tassles on your garments to remind you of God's covenant and Torah? Why should we not celebrate the resurection of our Lord on the day he rose as the first of many? (I'll be honest I haven't read the whole thread) You probably don't have a crucifix at your church because of the risen Lord. Should we not honor that day as the day of the New Covenant? Shabbat was made for man not man for the Shabbat. We have no need to set a "hedge around Torah" to keep it safe. Does not Paul say Circumsition is of to no avail unless it be of the heart? Just curious.

 

Did God bring you out of Egypt? If not, these don't pertain to you, except what is natural law written on your heart, like do not kill or steal and the such. Jesus is our sabbath, we have no days. We can worship any day.


Exo 20:2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Deu 5:6 'I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
Col 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

Grace and Peace GE,

This is wonderful rhetoric but can we affirm it through Christian history?

St. Justin Martyr (100-165), defending the Christian Faith before the pagan emperor and philosophers of Rome, had this to say about the Christian day of worship:

Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which... Jesus Christ our Saviour... rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn [Saturday]; and on the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things (St. Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapter LXVII, italics mine).

So, we have two early Christian Martyr affirming for us that the Lord's day was actually observed on Sunday. Both of these Martyr's also did this way before the fourth century as classic sabbatarian argument contends. I see no reason to agree with your rhetoric as it seems to in error.

Knowing the actual historical context of the meaning of the Lord's day and when it was observed by two Christian Martyr/witnesses we now know how to interpret the other references to the Lord's day...

AD 90: "One the Lord's own day gather together and break bread and give thanks." Didache, 14:1

AD 107: "Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days." St. Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter IX

AD 130: "Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me... Wherefore, we keep... the day... on which Jesus rose again from the dead." Epistle of Barnabas, Chapter XV

AD 160: "There is no other thing for which you blame us, my friends [speaking to the Jews], is there than this? That we do not live according to the Law, nor... do we observe the Sabbath as you do."

"For we to would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined you - namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts."

"But the Gentiles, who have believed on Him, and have repented on the sins which they have committed, they shall received the inheritanc... although they neither keep the Sabbath, nor are circumised, nor observe the feasts." St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue wit Trypho, Chapters X, XVIII, and XXVI.

AD 190: "He, fulfillment of the precept, according to the Gospel, keeps the Lord's day... glorifying the Lord's resurrection in himself." Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVII

AD 197: "For we solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath." Tertullian, Apology, Chapter 16

The truth is, there is not a single historical text that speaks of Christians observing the Sabbath as their primary day of worship.

So, despite sabbatarian claims to the contrary, it is an unavoidable historical fact that Sunday was established as the highest and holiest of days long before the councils and proclamations of the fourth century. It was observed by the very first Christians and by all succeeding generations. In the end, as I've said before, the only way sabbatarians can really refute the historical evidence that Sunday is the God-ordained day of Christian worship is to accuse the early Christians - including the very first Christians - of apostasy.

 

I think I know my 'history' as good as anybody else - at least knowing where to find my information from, which is available to anybody, to some not so easy as to others.
I have had a bit of education in Church History, History of Doctrine, etc., and I must give you the plus here, that one should find a lot on the history of Sunday-observance in 'history' and history books. So that comprises a VAST field of investigation, MANY GOOD scholars have made it their life's task. Not so I. I stopped learning or be taught more about the history of Sunday or Sabbath observance, one could say with the second century. The rest does interest me, but for its historical value; nothing else. It cannot help one much in obtaining a saving knowledge in the things concerning Jesus Christ. And that is where I draw a thik and sharp line: In this regard THERE IS NOTHING CONCERNING SUNDAY-OBSERVANCE TO BE LEARNED OR UNDERSTOOD FROM DURING THE FIRST TWO CENTURIES, because there are only a few scanty and negative references to Sunday-sacredness or Sunday-"OBSERVATION" (not, 'observance'. So I am not the one whom you will have to continue your conversation with, not that I have any bad feelings; I just don't have the time or interest at this stage in my life. As I sit here, it is IN great pain, and I really don't know what is going on with me or what is going to happen to me. But I asked the Lord I want to be his crocodile (Job's crocodile) and as I go down, I must stir up the waters like the grey hair of an old before his time man.
Read my 'book 5', 'Second Century'.

 

Despite sabbatarian claims, it is an unavoidable historical fact that Sunday was established as the highest and holiest of days long before the councils and proclamations of the fourth century. It was observed by the very first Christians and by all succeeding generations.

Now, obviously, it's difficult to accuse the first followers of any religion of apostasy. But I also contend it is spiritually irresponsible to label as apostates men like St. Ignatius and St. Justin, who stood against the powers of darkness and shed their life's blood for their beloved Christ. "Ambition" and "thirst for power" did not motivate these men. As leaders of an outlawed religion, they received no reward through their positions but martyrdom. So when they affirmed the Church's tradition of worshiping on Sunday, they were simply doing their job - preserving the Faith of the Apostles.

When these facts are recognized, Constantine's edict of 321 can be understood in its true historical light. Constantine embraced Christianity during his campaign against Maxentius in 312. He spent the rest of his life trying to make the laws of the Roman Empire consistant with Christian ideals and practices not the other way round. Proclaiming the traditional day of Christian worship (Sunday) as an official day of rest was just part of that ongoing process.

From this same perspective, the pronouncement by the bishops at the Council of Laodicea - that Christians must not rest on the Sabbath, but rather honor the Lord's day - is seen as just another skirmish in the battle against those who would force practices of the Jewish Old Coventant upon the New Coventant believers... to put the Light back into Shadow. This is a problem the Church has faced from its very beginning. It's the reason St. Paul had to admonish the Galations,

But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire against to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain (Galatians 4:9-11).

So what, ultimately, do sabbatarians need to understand here? What do they need to see, in order to avoid historical misunderstandings and scriptureal misinterpretations? Like the early Christians, sabbatarians must come to recognize that the Incarnation, life, death, and Resurrection of Christ opened a new way to God for us. They need to accept that the ways of God's Old Coventant - including the Sabbath worship - have been surpassed in the new Kingdom of Grace.

Of course, even on who accepts the fact that the Church has always worshiped on Sunday may still ask, "Why did the Church make that change? How could it set aside the Fourth Commandment like that?" To answer those questions, one must look to the teachings of the ancient Church - the Church that opened its doors on the Day of Pentecost and has preserved the teachings of the Apostles unaltered ever since.

In examining those teachings, the sabbatarian will discover something he may find quite surprising: According to the ancient Church, Saturday is the Sabbath! The Sabbath was never "changed" from Saturday to Sunday, as some Christians mistakenly claim. For two thousand years, the Church has recognized Saturday as a holy day that commemorate God's resting after the creation of the world. The Church also reveres Saturday as the day on which Christ descended into hell, shattering its gates and freeing mankind forever from the bonds of death.

Now, as the Council of Laodicea's pronouncement indicates, the Church has never observed the Sabbath in a Jewish manner - with things like mandatory resting from work and travel restrictions. But the Sabbath is a day on which special services and liturgical practices has historically been observed.

In fact, I've heard sabbatarians quote historical claims that Christians of later centuries continued to keep the Sabbath. But they misunderstand these texts, because they do not recognize that the honor the ancient Church gives to the Sabbath has always been secondary to it sreverence for Sunday. For while the Church believes that the Sabbath is holy, and the creation it commemorates is awesome, it understands that both have been infinitely superseded in the coming of the Son of God to earth.

The New Testament tells us that this creation in which we live, the one that God spent six days creating, will not last. St. John declares, "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away" (Revelation 21:1).

Many aspects of the old creation have already disappeared. For instance, St. Paul assures us that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). For those who believe in Jesus Christ, death - an inescapable feature of the old creation - has been "abolished" (2 Timothy 1:10).

So the new creation has already burst forth into existence. When did this begin to unfold? On the day of Christ's glorious Resurrection! One that day, God established the foundations of this new world that includes eternal life for mankind. Rising in the flesh, Christ our God made possible our eternal union with Him. By the power of His Resurrection, man is blessed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and may live in oneness with the Father under the earnest of new heavens and a new earth.

Now, the old creation was commemorated on Saturday, the day of its ending. But the new creation will never pass away. Thus, it can only be commemorated on the day on which it begins. As St. Athanasius (fourth century) writes,

The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old; in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation (On Sabbath and Circumcision, 3).

This is why the ancient Church often refers to Sunday as the "eighth day." As the day of Resurrection, Sunday becomes the doorway through which we pass beyond this temporal and fading realm - this universe that operates on the seven-day cycle that the Sabbath remembers - into God's eternal day.

I sincerely hope this helps. Peace and God Bless.

 

GE is pretty clear on what he believes and for him that's that. As for me I appreciate you comments and it helps me. Thanks.

 

Apparently, according to curch history, early christians met for corporate worship on Sundays. They weren't confused about scripture.

 

I'm glad I could be of service to you Thinkingstuff. I can appreciate another individuals convictions but I have to stick with the facts on this issue. I will admit that it's the fault of many Christians who have dismissed the continuity of our faith through the ages which has allowed these misunderstandings to manifest in the time of Ellen White. I don't hold GE personally responsible for this misunderstanding but the historical record, clearly, illuminates the answer for us if we are willing to study the issue. Ellen White, for all her admirable qualities in the pursuit of peity, allowed a particular hated and distrust of the early Church to cloud her Christian Practice and to fall back into a certain kind of spiritual regession where the Light of Christ has been mixed again with shadows. I believe it is the journey of our faith to peal away the veil to see clearly. This is a process in which we all struggle and I can only thank God daily for whatever glimpse He affords in our time here.

Peace and God Bless.

 

Conspectus...

You, Ed Sutton, “see no riddle”, but in "In the Sabbath's fullness of daylight it being", or "Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God", which happens to be absolutely nothing of the Song of Moses and the Lamb (Rev. 15:3-4)”. You obviously don’t know the ‘first variation’ of this Song, Exodus 15.
As for your contention, the “words ..."In the Sabbath's fullness of daylight it being"”, and, “"Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God" ... are not anywhere close to being found in any version of Scripture” ... “I have checked more than 25 versions)”, only is you telling us all how inattentive, rather, how un-knowledgeable, you have read.
One ‘version’ you obviously must have ignored, is the ‘original’:
"Opse", 'Late', WITHOUT EXCEPTION ANYWHERE; IT IS NOT DEBATABLE.
"sabbatohn", 'of the Sabbath / Sabbath's', Genitive Possessive of time, nature and belonging.
"tehi", 'in the / with the /during'
"epi-", 'centre', 'in', 'over'; also 'tending', 'pointing to',
"-fohs-", 'light', 'day'.
"-ous(as)" - 'being' ('to be', 'is')
"-ousehi" - Dative, 'in / with / by / during'
"eis" - 'in the eye' 'with in view' in the context of time; translated here, "TOWARDS", like our present hope now WITH THE EYE on the Last day which is our hope BEFORE the last day.
"mian ('hehmeran' by ellipses)" Accusative demanding distance and approach over distance, not inside or part of: "Towards / before the First Day"