Is it ever okay to sue a brother?

Sounds great until you approach real life. If you own a business the very life of the business will depend on people paying you for their purchases. In construction there are people all the time in business who must pay their suppliers for the matrials used on a job. There are times when a contractor may need to receive the payment from an owmer to pay the supplier. The contractor may have no choice but to sue the Chrsitian who refuses to pay or cannot pay. If the supplier demands the money he will sue the owner of the property to get his payment. The contractor will have no choice but to be a part of that suit unless he pays the supplier. Several years ago when I was pastoring a couple came to me who were having their house built by a member of the same church. The man overextended himself and could not pay the supplier. So the supplier came after the home owner. They asked me about what they could do to get their money. I told them to send him a registered letter and settle the problem. Finally the contractor responded to their letter and he confessed that he had over extended himself. Fortunately the home owner had enough money to pay the supplier. The contractor had been paid his far share which included the money owed the supplier. But he did not pay the supplier.

What would your appoach have been if you as a lot owner had hired a Christian contractor and he did not pay the supplier but you were unable to pay the supplier yourself when you had alrady paid the contractor? People who do not have a lot of extra money could not afford to pay twice.

Years ago I worked for a large materials supplier and almost every month were churches which did not pay their bill. A friend of mine owned some Christian bookstores and he told me the worse people to pay were often pastors. </font>[/QUOTE]As a part time contractor that owns a business, I have dealt with this issue. A few years ago, my pastor hired mt to do some work on a house he was building. He asked for work that was not included in the original contract. I gave him an updated bid and when I went to collect, he disagreed. I explained why he owed me more money and he still disagreed. I ended up losing money. As a result, I don't do business with him anymore.

The Lord knew about "real life" when He inspired the Scriptures and we should never attempt to justify our disobedience. Will God not honor His Word?

If you are not willing to work within the guidelines of Scripture, don't own a business or go into business for yourself.

 

When my ex-wife committed adultery, I took her to court for divorce proceedings. But she's not a brother, she's a sister, so I guess the verse doesn't apply

 

OTOH, by permitting the action, some can argue that you permitted a person to steal from another. It seems a bit odd that the we'll often bend over backwards to condemn a homosexual, but give the thief a free pass.

 

My obligation was completed. I don't think he'll get a "free pass." I handled it in accordance with the Scriptures. He disagreed. I know I'm right and I'll let the Lord handle it.

 

I don't dispute that your actions were honorable. But what you're implying is that if smeone sued him after exhausting all resources, that person would be sinning. Scripture doesn't say that at all.

 

Are you sure he agreed to the price of the added work and what was to be done? Did you have him sign a contract?

That is the reason for a signed contract. If you had a signed contract you would have reason for a lien. A lien is not quite like a suit. It does declare the debt will be satisifed when the building is sold. Apparently he did not hurt you for enough money that it would have caused you to lose you bank acoount and still owing money.

Never once have I ended in your situation because I always require a signed contract. A signed contract means there was a meeting of the minds and things are clear. If they do not understand what is in writing then you do not have a meeeting of the minds.

If I have any doubt about the person I would ask for references.

One time I gave a person a price and then a contract to sign and the look on their face told me they were not trustworthy. If they are not willing to sign a contract then they are not dependable. A friend will sign his name on the dotted line. I had an instance when the person wanted a more detailed contract. I don't mind that at all.

By the fact you are the businessman it is your burden to prove there was a meeting of the minds.

Years ago I worked for a company and we were ask to supply materials for a job that would be about 2 million today. We had the company audited so we knew they had the ability to pay.

By law in each contract I had to include:

“Warning to buyer: if you sign the contract which accompanies this notice, you will be putting up your home as security. This means that your home could be sold without your permission and without any court action if you miss any payment required by this contract.”

“State law requires anyone who contracts to do construction work to be licensed by the Contractors State License Board in the license category in which the contractor is going to be working—if the total price of the job is $500 or more (including labor and materials).

“Licensed contractors are regulated by laws designed to protect the public. If you contract with someone who does not have a license, the Contractors State License Board may be unable to assist you with a complaint. Your only remedy against an unlicensed contractor may be in civil court, and you may be liable for damages arising out of any injuries to the contractor or his or her employees.

“You may contact the Contractors State License Board to find out if this contractor has a valid license. The Board has complete information on the history of licensed contractors, including any possible suspensions, revocations, judgments, and citations. The Board has offices throughout California. Please check the government pages of the White Pages for the office nearest you or call 1-800-321-CSLB for more information.”

“Contractors are required by law to be licensed and regulated by the Contractors State License Board, which has jurisdiction to investigate complaints against contractors if a complaint regarding a patent act or
omission is filed within four years of the date of the alleged violation. A complaint regarding a latent act or omission pertaining to structural defects must be filed within 10 years of the date of the alleged violation. Any questions concerning the contractor may be referred to the Registrar, Contractors State License Board, Post Office Box 26000, Sacramento, California 95826.”

“ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES
“NOTICE: BY INITIALING IN THE SPACE BELOW YOU ARE AGREEING TO HAVE ANY DISPUTE ARISING OUT OF THE MATTERS INCLUDED IN THE ‘ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES’ PROVISION DECIDED BY NEUTRAL ARBITRATION AS PROVIDED BY CALIFORNIA LAW AND YOU ARE
GIVING UP ANY RIGHTS YOU MIGHT POSSESS TO HAVE THE DISPUTE LITIGATED IN A COURT OR JURY TRIAL. BY INITIALING IN THE SPACE BELOW YOU ARE GIVING UP YOUR JUDICIAL RIGHTS TO DISCOVERY AND APPEAL, UNLESS THOSE RIGHTS ARE SPECIFICALLY INCLUDED
IN THE ‘ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES’ PROVISION. IF YOU REFUSE TO SUBMIT TO ARBITRATION AFTER AGREEING TO THIS PROVISION, YOU MAY BE COMPELLED TO ARBITRATE UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE BUSINESS AND PROFESSIONS CODE OR OTHER APPLICABLE LAWS. YOUR AGREEMENT TO THIS ARBITRATION PROVISION IS VOLUNTARY.
“WE HAVE READ AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREGOING AND AGREE TO SUBMIT DISPUTES ARISING OUT OF THE MATTERS INCLUDED IN THE ‘ARBITRATION OF DISPUTES’ PROVISION TO NEUTRAL ARBITRATION.”


NOTICE TWNER

“Under the California Mechanics’ Lien Law, any contractor, subcontractor, laborer, supplier, or other person
or entity who helps to improve your property, but is not paid for his or her work or supplies, has a right to place
a lien on your home, land, or property where the work was performed and to sue you in court to obtain
payment.
This means that after a court hearing, your home, land, and property could be sold by a court officer and the
proceeds of the sale used to satisfy what you owe. This can happen even if you have paid your contractor in full
if the contractor’s subcontractors, laborers, or suppliers remain unpaid.
To preserve their rights to file a claim or lien against your property, certain claimants such as subcontractors
or material suppliers are each required to provide you with a document called a “Preliminary Notice.”
Contractors and laborers who contract with owners directly do not have to provide such notice since you are
aware of their existence as an owner. A preliminary notice is not a lien against your property. Its purpose is to
notify you of persons or entities that may have a right to file a lien against your property if they are not paid. In order to perfect their lien rights, a contractor, subcontractor, supplier, or laborer must file a mechanics’ lien
with the county recorder which then becomes a recorded lien against your property. Generally, the maximum
time allowed for filing a mechanics’ lien against your property is 90 days after substantial completion of your
project.
TO INSURE EXTRA PROTECTION FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR PROPERTY,
YOU MAY WISH TO TAKE ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING STEPS:
(1) Require that your contractor supply you with a payment and performance bond (not a license bond), which
provides that the bonding company will either complete the project or pay damages up to the amount of the
bond. This payment and performance bond as well as a copy of the construction contract should be filed with
the county recorder for your further protection. The payment and performance bond will usually cost from 1
to 5 percent of the contract amount depending on the contractor’s bonding ability. If a contractor cannot
obtain such bonding, it may indicate his or her financial incapacity.
(2) Require that payments be made directly to subcontractors and material suppliers through a joint control.
Funding services may be available, for a fee, in your area which will establish voucher or other means of
payment to your contractor. These services may also provide you with lien waivers and other forms of protection.
Any joint control agreement should include the addendum approved by the registrar.
(3) Issue joint checks for payment, made out to both your contractor and subcontractors or material suppliers
involved in the project. The joint checks should be made payable to the persons or entities which send preliminary notices to you. Those persons or entities have indicated that they may have lien rights on your property, therefore you need to protect yourself. This will help to insure that all persons due payment are actually paid.
(4) Upon making payment on any completed phase of the project, and before making any further payments,
require your contractor to provide you with unconditional “Waiver and Release” forms signed by each material
supplier, subcontractor, and laborer involved in that portion of the work for which payment was made. The
statutory lien releases are set forth in exact language in Section 3262 of the Civil Code. Most stationery stores
will sell the “Waiver and Release” forms if your contractor does not have them. The material suppliers,
subcontractors, and laborers that you obtain releases from are those persons or entities who have filed
preliminary notices with you. If you are not certain of the material suppliers, subcontractors, and laborers
working on your project, you may obtain a list from your contractor. On projects involving improvements to a
single-family residence or a duplex owned by the individuals, the persons signing these releases lose the right to file a mechanics’ lien claim against your property. In other types of construction, this protection may still be
important, but may not be as complete.
To protect yourself under this option, you must be certain that all material suppliers, subcontractors, and
laborers have signed the “Waiver and Release” form. If a mechanics’ lien has been filed against your property,
it can only be voluntarily released by a recorded “Release of Mechanics’ Lien” signed by the person or entity
that filed the mechanics’ lien against your property unless the lawsuit to enforce the lien was not timely filed.
You should not make any final payments until any and all such liens are removed. You should consult an
attorney if a lien is filed against your property.”
(Rev. 4/99)

If I came to their place then I was required to give them a notice of cancellation. This gives them the right to cancel if I come to them. But if the contract was signed at my place of business then was is not required.

NOTICE OF RIGHT TO CANCEL
Notice of Cancellation

Date

You may cancel this transaction, without any penalty or obligation, within three business days from the above date.

If you cancel, any property traded in, any payments made by you under the contract
or sale, and any negotiable instrument executed by you will be returned within 10
days following receipt by the seller of your cancellation notice, and any security
interest arising out of the transaction will be canceled.

If you cancel, you must make available to the seller at your residence, in substantially
as good condition as when received, any goods delivered to you under this contract or
sale, or you may, if you wish, comply with the instructions of the seller regarding the
return shipment of the goods at the seller’s expense and risk.

If you do make the goods available to the seller and the seller does not pick them up
within 20 days of the date of your notice of cancellation, you may retain or dispose of
the goods without any further obligation.

If you fail to make the goods available to the seller, or if you agree to return the
goods to the seller and fail to do so, then you remain liable for performance of all
obligations under the contract.

To cancel this transaction, mail or deliver a signed and dated copy of this cancellation
notice, or any other written notice, or send a telegram to:


Name
Address


not later than midnight of date


I hereby cancel this transaction ___________
(date)

___________________________________

 

Good info GB. He didn't disagree that I told him it would cost more, he disagreed that he would be required to pay more.

It is never pleasant to confront someone about what they owe. I'm not saying its easy to let something go either. Even when they sign a contract, sometimes they'll say they didn't read ita dn didn't know. Of course, that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to pay.

This thread is about suing a Christian. There are several methods to get what is due without suing someone that have been mentioned above. I maintain that Scripture doesn't allow a Christian to take a Christian to court. I didn't catch any caveats in the Word.

 

Scripture says no such thing. Scripture tells us it is good for a Christian not to take a Christian to court. However, it does not forbid a Christian from taking another Christian to court.

Otherwise, I sinned when my ex-wife committed adultery and I divorced her.

 

Point taken JohnV. Carrying your point a bit further, "Scripture tells us it is good for a Christian not to take a Christian to court." The logical converse side is that it is bad for a Christian to take another Christian to court.

Regarding your wife, Scripture allows divorce for that situation.

 

Not so. Paul says that it is good to be single. But that doesn't mean it's bad to be married, does it? He's simply stating that the condition is honorable. No converse exists. Likewise with it being good for a Christian not to take a Christian to court.

Of course, no disagreement there. Additionally, her adultery had gotten to the point where, had I don't nothing, I would have been permitting and condoning the adultery (in effect, giving her permission to sin).

 

Johnv, to what scripture(s) do you refer? Thanks.

 

??? That's been the topic of the whole thread.

 

rlvaughn: I posted this the second post into this thread...

 

John, that's why I asked. If I'm reading you correctly it sounds like you're saying "it's can be ok for a Christian to sue, but it would be good not to sue."

If I read Paul correctly, he says "dare you take a matter against one another before the law courts instead of before the saints", "is your judgement so marred that you trust the secular system while you don't trust those who will judge the world and the angels to judge your matters", "you ought to be ashamed", "it is a fault on the part of Christians to take their matters before the law instead of the church" and "it would be better to allow yourself to be defrauded than to do that".

I thought maybe you had another scripture in mind besides I Cor. 6.

 

Its all about accountability, isnt it. If a Christian man or woman, has a car wreck and its their fault, and your child, or spouse is killed in the accident, can the church resolve this matter??? If a church or religious organization engages in secular business, shouldnt they be required to be responsible and held accountable for their actions??? Being a Believer doesnt negate responsibility to follow the law. The Bible is clear that we should try and resolve the issues before going to court, but that if all else has failed we are free to go to court. I can forgive, I can try and resolve the matter and if it only affects me I can walk away, but if the situation affects me in such away that my situation affects those near and dear to me and all else has failed wouldnt I be free to take action?? Many times people justify their actions with scripture, regardles of whether their right or wrong. As Chrisitans we are called to be accountable for our actions. If a man does many righteous acts before God, can he then justify a single wrong doing, by saying "I am a man of God therefore I can treat my brothers and sisters in any fashion and they cannot sue me?" We must be accountable before God and man!

 

Two things to consider here:

Matthew 12:50 tells us that not all Christians are our brethren. So, not all matters can be dealt with withing the church.

Also, the way our laws are set up in the US, there are certain situations that legally can only be handled with a lawsuit. Are we not to subject ourselves to the laws of the land? (Besides, in most cases, you are actually suing the insurance company.)

 

If someone who claims to be a Christian has cost you some serious money by cheating you or pulling some other un-Christianlike caper, I wouldn't hesitate to take'em to court.

2-4-6-8!

Yes, it's time to litigate!

 

Here's a question: How about if they cost you money inadvertently, instead of by cheating you or pulling some caper?

(I agree with what you said, I'm just trying to add to the thought processes here.)

 

Well, the Christian thing to do would be to pay the person back, whether it was purposefully or not. If they refuse to pay you back, and you have been open to all other possible solutions, (i.e., payment plans, etc.), then they are not acting in a Christ like behaviour and you should take it to court, IMO.

 

Hope of Glory,

what do you mean by "inadvertently"? Was it negligence? Would the average person have realized that those actions would cost you money?

There are some cases where a person can inadvertently cost another person money and yet might not be even morally obligated to pay them back.

For example, I went to pick up a lady for church once....she lived about a half hour away from me and my church, in a rundown neighborhood, and a pothole near her house popped one of my car's tires. We didn't even think of asking her to pay for a new tire, even though it had happened basically because we were picking her up. She wouldnt be responsible for that.

See what I mean?