"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Not hardly Don! You do an awesome job!!! I just can't keep my mouth shut, so I got to answer first! Sorry 'bout that!

Karen,

I don't have the time to read that article right now, but can I ask why you went to a Catholic Encyclopedia to define the word?

~Lorelei

 

Lorelei,
Because it did, I thought, a good job of defining some terms as historically understood, and describing Augustine's views versus his opponents, and was very on target with this thread in the particular examples it gave. Augustine had a lot to do with our definitions of ethics, not just "Calvinism".

You are absolutely right that our standard is the Bible, but it is useful to look at what some have interpreted that standard to be, over many years.
Augustine is quoted so often on the Calvinism forum, I thought it would be interesting to quote him on a different issue. Which, by the way, sounds like you agree with him very precisely.

Karen

 

I don't find it all that useful. I find that the more people study how 'others' interpreted things, they start finding excuses to change things to fit what they 'want' them to say rather then what they 'really' say.

You will find that I very seldom quote anything other then the Word of God here for that very reason. I don't want you to believe me, I don't want you to believe Augustine, Calvin, the RCC or anyone else. What I want is for you to beleive the Bible.

Now don't start calling me an extremist, I know there are many good theologians out there that can write a good commentary on the Word, and It is helpful to know what the opposition believes as well. I am not saying that reading other sources is wrong. I just feel that too many people believe what so and so says and have no clue as to what the Bible really says on the matter. As has happened in many threads, you start hearing verses quoted and explained in a way that is way out of the original context it was intended. (i.e. Jesus said "To do good is lawful on the Sabbath", that interpreted means lying is acceptable in some instances)

Many people that teach false doctrines will agree with me on one point or another. That doesn't mean I now espouse Augustine and the RCC from whence he came. There are many people that don't beleive in our God but will still think lying is wrong. Does that make my case from a Biblical standpoint? No.

Anyway, it was an interesting read, though I find the Bible much more enjoyable and instructional.

~Lorelei

 

I am still waiting for your response. Surely, the unborn are more innocent than anyone you might have been hiding from the Nazis.

Shouldn't we be willing to lie or even kill to protect them? (I don't believe this last statement by the way, I am just applying your logic.)</font>[/QUOTE]Still no answer?</font>[/QUOTE]Where is Blackbird and those who think lying is ok for a good reason?

 

Hello! Testing One-Two! Testing! Testing! Just wondering if you guys could hear me from back there!!??

Refering once again to the late, great Corrie Ten Boom. There is an episode there where the ten Boom's are trying to find an escape route for a little baby! And the "Dad-gum" preacher didn't want to get involved!! God help us if we won't do it like the ten Boom's did if the scenero just so happens to happen again.

I heard a story one time of a Catholic priest who involved himself in aiding the Jews in whatever way! The SS rooted him out of the "Underground" and placed him in prison. Another priest who was the priest's friend came to see him in prison and here's how the conversation went:

"Brother So & So! What are you doing in this prison?"

To which the reply comes something like:

"The question is not what am I doing in this prison! The question is why are you not in here with me??!!"

Most of us here will never have to worry about defending someone's life by lying to wicked authorities. We'll never have to confront the situation. My point is--in the heat of the moment when a life is at stake before your nose--with no chance to rehearse the situation or what might happen--chances are the majority of us here would come up with the "slickiest" lie we could possibly dream of at that "spur of the moment" in hopes that it will be believable enough to send the hunters away--and to preserve a life! And when the hunters do go away--we'll say--"Wow! I can't believe I said that!" I guarantee you! The reason many of you say "I won't lie even for a life!"--is because the pressure is not on! But put the pressure on--and in a flash--you'd protect what God made out of the dust of the ground! You'd look straight into that "lamp" beaming in your face--sweat dripping from your brow like Niagra Falls--and you'd lie if you had to to protect my life or the life of that baby that the "Dad-gum" preacher refused to help no matter what the cost! And then--Almighty God--I believe with all my heart will cover that sin you just committed with all the grace that the Lord Jesus Christ has to offer!

I'd do it if the pressure was on to save your life or the life of that baby from a wicked and perverted generation!

 

Blackbird,

You make an excellent point and one I have never denied. I really don't know what I would do under the pressure, but I do know that lying is still a sin, whether the pressure is on or off. As you said:

Indeed he would! For He is a loving and forgiving God! But as you admitted here, it is still a sin. That is our point. Not who is Holier or who is the stronger person. Our point is that whether or not everyone does it, whether or not the pressure is on, it is still a sin to lie. God will forgive that sin, but as Paul said, just because we are fogiven does not mean we nullify the law, rather we should uphold the law. Even in grave circumstances it should be our desire to uphold God's law and trust in Him to see us through.

~Lorelei

 

True! True! True! And under the right kind of pressure--whether we would admit it or not--we'd pull a "Rahab" in a split second to save a precious life! And Rahab is in that great Godly Hall of Faith, Hebrews Chapter 11 !!

 

blackbird,

Before you go getting all excited, remember this. The fact that Jesus will forgive our sins does not give us an excuse to willfully break God's laws.

That is what Paul was addressing in Romans chapter 3. I can say, well gee, since God's grace is demonstrated in His forgiveness, the more I sin, the more He forgives and the more glory He receives! YES, let's all sin so that grace can abound more and more!!

No, because of our faith we should strive even harder to uphold God's laws, especially when the pressure is on!

Just because some do it, doesn't mean we should just let that pressure get the best of us and find our own way out! Because we know God's grace is real, because we have not only read, but experienced that grace first hand, we must trust God when we are under pressure, and let Him have the glory!

~Lorelei

 

Yes! What you say is true! We should not go around "willfully" sinning and telling "non-truths." I'm not going to lie to save your position on some "board" or some job! I'm not going to lie to save you from jail if you have done a crime--you do the time! I would not lie to a Grand Jury like some former President we once had!!

I'm simply talking about when the "pressure" is on and a life is at stake. To know that the truth will mean a life WILL be taken and a lie will mean that a life WILL be spared. I will cover up, use deception(a form of lieing), cheat(another form of lieing), and do whatever it takes to spare your life in that spur of the moment like Rahab and those Hebrew mid-wives!

When the heat is on(like in Wartime Europe, or the South Pacific)--and lives are at stake--I'd do it to keep you alive!

 

So, when everything is hunky dory, it is ok to obey God, but when the pressure is on, we trust in ourself? Just throw God and His word out the window when a life is at stake. My God isn't powerful enough to save that life within the confines of His laws. Man, rather then God, must be trusted in life and death situations.

Is this really what you believe?

I am glad my God is greater than that!

~Lorelei

[ August 15, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

I got to thinking about ole Peter and his denials. You know the story. Jesus tells Peter point blank, "You are going to deny me!" And what did Peter say??! "It ain't so, Lord! I won't do it! I ain't gonna do it, just wait and see!"

And sure enough--when he had opportunity not to deny--he did it anyway! Forewarned and everything! Ole Peter must have been thinking--"I won't lie! I'll tell the truth about me and Jesus! I'll live for Jesus, that I will!!" He lied, didn't he? And that rooster "tattled" on him, didn't he? All the time the rooster was crowing, "Cockle doodle DON'T!! Cockle doodle DON'T!!"

Ole Peter intended on not lieing! He probably had a plan for the truth! But the pressure was on! What I am simply saying is--as humans there is the intention to do what is right--even to rehearse doing the right thing ahead of time before the problem rises. What I am saying is--for about 99.9999% of us as humans--when we are backed up against the wall--the sinful human nature will take over. If I am backed up against the wall and your life was at stake--and I knew the truth was going to cost you your life . . . ! My love for the lives of human beings will cover a multitude of lies to keep them living!

Just remember what transpired with the Ten Boom family back in Wartime Europe! Remember reading of the Captain talking with Casper after the truth was uncovered?(Yes, covering the truth is a lie!) The Captain said something like, "Give me your word old man that you will behave yourself and I will let you stay here!" To which Casper replies something like, "I will help any person who comes knocking at my door asking for it!" To which the Captain issues the order to the soldiers something like, "Load the old man on the truck, too!"

We say that we know how we would respond under pressure--but we will never know until the pressure comes. And yes, I know that the Lord Jesus Christ is omnipotant--He's all powerful and can move to remedy any situation. But what if He don't! How would I respond to the situation? I would try my best to be "as wise as a serpent--but as gentle as a dove!" And I recon that if someone put some of you under pressure--"thumb cocked" a pistol and hold it up to your wife's head-- who believe you would respond in a spiritual way--like you were the Pope's brother or something--and they let me look at the Lie Detector test they give you--the ink would be WAAAAAAAYYYYYY off the paper! I tell you right now--if someone "thumb cocked" a pistol and had it held to my 9 year old girl's head--and I know that if I told the truth--my girl would die--I'd be bluffing my way out of that situation!!

And last, The Lord Jesus Christ--He is great! He is good! He is powerful! And I trust Him! I adhere to Him! He's my God, too!!

 

Even if the challenge was "Deny Christ, or we pull the trigger?"

The difference here is that Peter didn't set out to lie; and it wasn't until after the cock crowed thrice that he realized what he'd done.

What you've presented is not like Peter's situation at all. You're talking about premeditated, preplanned, intentional lying.

I've already had this talk with my kids. Told them they might face the same situation some day. That someone might hold a gun to my head, and tell them "Deny Christ, or we pull the trigger." I told my kids, "You'll be tempted to deny Christ, thinking to yourself, 'I don't really mean it.' Don't you do it. 'Cause even if they do pull the trigger, we all know one thing for sure: I'm going to heaven, and I'll see you there one day. So don't lie for me, because I'm God's anyway."

But, as I stated before, each of us must go the way of our conscience and our convictions.

 

When the pressure is on and you think you have the answer, remember this:

I think this verse sums up my argument.

~Lorelei

 

Of course he set out to lie, as soon as he was asked the question, he knew he was lying. The cock crowing only convicted him of it. Peter also broke out of prison, and hushed his friends in an attempt to hide from the law by having them aid a shelter a criminal (himself). He then continued to break the law by preaching in the street.

Peter sinned period, he tried to protect himself by lying, escaping, and conspiracy with other believers. He did many wrongs in order to do right.

 

Romans 13 makes it very clear that to break a States Law is to break God's established law. How much more clear can that be? It is wrong and a sin. However, I have an argument that keeps coming up in that I believe Jesus excuses certain sins that we commit and he further must expect that we will commit them. This would solve the seemingly unanswered proplems that this thread has raised.

 

My posts do not imply the additive, "Deny Christ or you die!" That's not the issue. The issue is--are you willing to lie in order to save a life? Are you willing to use deceit/deception in order to save a life? When the life is someone else's but your own?? Are you willing, like Corrie ten Boom, to steal ration coupons, to falsify documents, to create bogas identification papers for others, to dress a man up as a lady so that he will actually look like a lady from a distance to the authorities who are watching or who may be watching, to keep a radio/telephone in resident when the authorities have issued orders to surrender such or suffer consequences, to use codes and symbols which is deceiving to the enemy, to change street signs and directions to throw the search off the right path, to go "Underground" in hopes of conquest over a superior enemy??!! That's the question! To know somewhere down the line--a lie will have to be made up to appear as truth in order that a life be preserved?? I can do it! I'd do it to save a life!

 

Much more. As argued before, you have plucked this verse out of its context. Government draws its legitimate authority from God. When obeying a command of God results in disobedience to God then Christians must be ready to take whatever punishment results from moral disobedience.

 

But you haven't waited until that time. You are not purposing in your heart to do right.

God is sovereign. Not only can He remedy any situation, He allowed you to be in the situation. You are saying that if God allows you to face this particular challenge you will disregard His direct command: "No thanks God, I have a better plan."

So Blackbird what is your answer?

I believe that abortion is murder. By now, 5+ times more unborn children have been killed with the sanction of our government than the number of Jews killed by the Nazis. If the police are chasing the murderer of an abortion doctor, should I lie for him? I would be saving his life and he saved the lives of unborn children.

We regard protecting the Jews against the Nazis as heroism. But at the time, their neighbors and rulers would have considered it just as criminal as hiding a fugitive in our country.

Applying your rule consistently, would you lie for him?

[ August 19, 2002, 02:22 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Nice opinion, but could you support it with scripture. You seem to have overlooked that Paul states very clearly that God is who establishes the laws of the State, not the State Legislature. So it is implied that we are to follow State law even when it conflicts with a scripture, since that is God's latest law he has established.

 

Murdering/aborting infant children is cold-blooded premeditated murder. Murdering an abortion doctor is also cold-blooded premeditated murder. One is legalized by the state--the other one isn't. Blowing up/burning the clinic and "drawing a bead" (as in .30-06 caliber) on the doctor's head is not the answer. I do not understand man's stupidity with these abortion laws and I'll do what I can INSIDE THE CONFINES OF MAN'S LAW to prevent abortion from happening. As for the doctor--his life is precious, too--and if you came to my door looking for him to kill him or hurt him--I'd lie to you in a "New York" second as to his whereabouts. "I don't know where the world he is--but when I see him . . . !"