is it ironic that a non christian

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by massdak, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    would make such a movie that stirs up so much controversy.
    mel gibson a roman catholic has taken the heat. he has made a movie regarding the last 12 hours of Jesus before the cross, more realistic graphic details of how brutal Christ crucifixion must have been. many outspoken jewish religionist and liberals are very offended.
    release date seems to be ash wed. 2004


    excerpt from site>>>
    But then in April, a group of Catholic and Jewish scholars began investigating the film, prompted by a report that Gibson's father holds anti-Semitic views, and that both Gibsons adhere to a branch of traditional Catholicism that disavows many of the ''liberal'' reforms adopted by the Vatican in the 1960s.


    http://www.ew.com/ew/onlyonaol/report/0,17129,479449~1|72605|467291~0~,00.html

    Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    What makes you think that Mel Gibson is not a Christian? Please read some of what has happened recently in his life.

    Just because someone is Roman Catholic doesn't mean that he isn't saved.
     
  3. BrianT

    BrianT
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    Sure it does. Haven't you read "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life, unless you're Catholic, in which case the above doesn't apply to you, and you instead have to go by the rules as set forth by various (and usually differing) Baptist perspectives. Good luck with that." [​IMG]

    It isn't really ironic this film is causing controversy. "Jewish religionists and liberals" are always going to be offended by an accurate portrayal of the crucifixion, regardless of who does it.
     
  4. massdak

    massdak
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    i like mel and it maybe possible that he is saved, my doubts regarding his salvation is based on his rcc affiliation. i am leary that a christian in the rcc would not know that faith alone in Christ alone is salvation. the rcc gives a curse to those who believe the true gospel.
    we should pray for mel gibson especially for his salvation, if he is going to be scorned for Christ's sake, then he should belong to Him.
    mel truly is a brave heart humanly speaking, i have not seen his movie but it maybe a good thing to see, if God uses it to bring some to hear the gospel then praise be.
     
  5. mioque

    mioque
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    "the rcc gives a curse to those who believe the true gospel." :eek: :confused:

    You learn something new everyday I guess ;)
     
  6. Helen

    Helen
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    Mioque, the Roman Catholic church pronounces anathema on anyone who believes that salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. This is in their documents from of old, and Vatican II ratified it.
     
  7. mioque

    mioque
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    helen
    When massdak used the word curse, I was thinking of something a little more occult.
    Being pronounced anathema is the same as being excommunicated. It means you are kicked out of the RC church. In a case of an anathema it theoretically means you are authomatically kicked out if you believe a certain thing.
    It can only apply to members of that denomination. So you can believe in salvation by grace alone all you want, cardinal Ratzinger is not dropping by at your place with an iron maiden tucked under his arm. :D
    In fact there is a significant branch of Dutch Roman Catholicism, that believes in about half a dozen things that are anathema (including Sola Gratia and consubstantion) that is not in any danger of getting excommunicated.
    The Dutch expression:"Lees maar, er staat niet wat er staat". (=Read it, it doesn't say what it is saying), very much applies to some aspects of Catholic canon law.
    And yes, when I started studying the history of Roman catholic church in university, that vagueness gave me (brought up on Sola scriptura) quite a headache.
     
  8. massdak

    massdak
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    what the rcc teaches regarding salvation &gt;&gt;&gt;

    Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone...let him be anathema.
    Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins...let him be anathema.
    Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.
    Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.
    Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
    Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ...does not truly merit an increase of grace and eternal life... let him be anathema.
     
  9. massdak

    massdak
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    that is a pretty liberal view of anathema, here is the dictionary word. much more accurate then your liberal view &gt;&gt;&gt;

    Main Entry: anath·e·ma
    Pronunciation: &-'na-th&-m&
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Late Latin anathemat-, anathema, from Greek, thing devoted to evil, curse, from anatithenai to set up, dedicate, from ana- + tithenai to place, set —more at DO
    Date: 1526
    1 a : one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority b : someone or something intensely disliked or loathed — usually used as a predicate nominative &lt;this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen —S. J. Gould&gt;
    2 a : a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication b : the denunciation of something as accursed c : a vigorous denunciation :
     
  10. Major B

    Major B
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    Well, how about "Gods and Generals?" That is a very Christian movie, produced by Ted Turner, who is CERTAINLY not a believer.
     
  11. blackbird

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    One of these days folks are gonna wake up and realize that these so called Christian movies and books scripted and played out---are not BIBLE! It does not replace Bible---see, in that movie--somebody is gonna foul up and get something out of place!! But the word of God--stood next to the best context of movie script---the movie script will bend like a piece of hot steel in a furnace!!

    Blackbird
     
  12. massdak

    massdak
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    also in brief&gt;&gt;

    What every Catholic must do to be saved
    Faith alone cannot save a man. Every Catholic must worship God in order to attain to life everlasting. This worship is rendered by: FAITH, which makes us adore God and embrace all of the truths which he has revealed, no matter how obscure and incomprehensible they might appear to be. We worship God by HOPE, which honors the infinite power, mercy and goodness of God. Hoping in God's gooodness, mercy and grace the soul rises to a reasonable certainty of it's eternal salvation theough the merits of Jesus Christ and the powerful intercession of our Lady, Mother of Perpetual Help. We worship God by Charity, which makes us love God with our whole hearts for His own sake above everthing else, and our neighbors as ourselves for God's sake. To love God above all things we must be ready to lose everything, our own lives included, in order to avoid even the slightest sin. The chief acts of Charity are Adoation, Praise, Thanksgiving, offering ourselves to God, Sacrifice and Prayer.


    In Adoring God we ought not forget the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ. We should invoke the protection of the Blessed Virgin and the Angels because they are God's friends and therefore able to help us with their payers.


    We should likewise reverence the sacred relics of God's sevants, the Cross upon which our Lord atoned for our sins and the holy pictures representing and recalling to our minds Jesus Christ , His Mother or the Saints. -My Divine Friend


    All Catholics must partake of the sacraments that Christ instituted for our salvation, namely Baptism, Confimation, Holy Eucharist, Confession, Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, Extreme Unction.

    http://www.unafides1.homestead.com/
     
  13. mioque

    mioque
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    massdak
    Liberal is usually only used as an insult on this board, so please try to use some moderation when you use it.

    Actually the original Greek meaning of anathema is to set aside for sacrifice, so your dictionary also isn't perfect.
    My description was based on what being declared anathema currently means in practice.
     
  14. massdak

    massdak
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    maybe you should look at the historical meaning of this catholic doctrine, the liberal view may have softened its meaning but the rcc stance is outlined as i posted. your view is a liberal view concerning this subject. i could have plainly said you are in error which is pretty much synonymous with a liberal view. i must stand by my post instead of dancing around an issue.
     
  15. mioque

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    "i could have plainly said you are in error which is pretty much synonymous with a liberal view."
    Nothing wrong with :"you know Mioque I think your wrong on this because...."

    "maybe you should look at the historical meaning of this catholic doctrine"
    The irony is that I am probably the only one of us 2 with a degree in church history. [​IMG]

    And I am probably also the one of us 2 with the most exposure to the inner workings of Roman Catholicism.

    You see, what you perceive as me dancing around the clearcut issues, is actually me seeing the difference between what is on paper and what is actually happening.
     
  16. massdak

    massdak
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    you know Mioque I think your wrong on this because...."

    your view is very liberal and based on your modern view of how you perceive how the catholic system works. the cafeteria style process toward its doctrine is so vast with differing catholic opinion, one is hard pressed to know exactly where they stand, at any one time.


    The irony is that I am probably the only one of us 2 with a degree in church history.
    you have a degree in church history?
    i rather would be led by the Spirit of God for truth.

    And I am probably also the one of us 2 with the most exposure to the inner workings of Roman Catholicism.
    my question to you then is, do you see a different gospel in the rcc?
    what exactly are you defending here?


    You see, what you perceive as me dancing around the clearcut issues, is actually me seeing the difference between what is on paper and what is actually happening.

    thats how liberals interpret the Bible today, as they see things actually happening.

    again forget about your degree look at historical writings and how the council of trent came into play, see how this historical curse was administered.
     
  17. Trotter

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    OK, now...you two play nice...

    Trotter
     
  18. amixedupmom

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    My two cents.....

    It is between GOD and Mel Gibson wether or not he's saved. And, it's not out place to judge his salvation. His movie maybe, but his salvation never.

    Sidenote: It dosen't matter what views his father holds. Since Mel can only be responsible for Mel. Just because your a movie star dosen't make you any diffrent than anyone else. I'm sure we all have lost family members. And, you CAN be a Roman Catholic and be saved. It's like your haircolor. Only your hairdresser knows. Well same for your soul. Only GOD knows. So can we get back o nthe subject of the film and not this mess ? Please [​IMG]

    God Bless you all. I'm sorry if i offended anyone *ducks down*
     
  19. Gunther

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    1. Because he is catholic.

    2. I will take his theology over his piety.

    3. Yes it does.
     
  20. Gunther

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    If Hymaneus and Alexander were outside of true Christianity because they taught that the resurrection had already happened, then surely those who deny biblical justification (ie, catholics) are outside of true Christianity.

    They have a different gospel and a different Christ.

    Our Christ accomplished salvation and imputes his righteousness to the believing sinner. If a catholic believes that, then he is not catholic. To be catholic is to embrace justification by infusion and more grace through the sacraments. The Christ they honor has no power to save.
     

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