is it ironic that a non christian

you say that you are basing your Christianity on the bible, yet your interpretation seems different then what the apostle paul has written toward explaining the gospel and dependence only on Christ. if you are trusting in Him and you are confident that you have not placed other works or merit to that trust then that is good and biblical. if you do good works as obedience and you know that your works are manifest by God and that no way does it count as any saving power then that is good. is this where you stand?
let us find this out because it is hard to debate james with other believers much less those that are not. other wise we are going no where fast

 

No, my interpretation takes into account Paul *and* James. My interpretation is different from *yours* (which seems to ignore James, at least that's how it appears since you are so reluctant to even talk about it), not necessarily Pauls. It is possible that *you* are incorrect. Since you won't answer any of my questions nor discuss James, we may never know.

Unknown at this time.

Humor me.

James 2 says "[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

"justified" by works. Faith "with" those works. And those works in turn *improved* the faith.

It goes on to say "[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Did Abraham believe? Yes, because he *did* something, offered his son. Could you say he had faith if he simply "believed" in his head but didn't do that work? No. "What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." (verse 14 and 19) </font>[/QUOTE]brian this is where you error greatly. you say abraham believed because he did something? this is not how a man believes, it is God that draws and God who gives us understanding and reveals Christ that we can believe. works and obedience does not produce faith, you have it backwards. true saving faith will produce works as God changes our heart.

you seem to be reading things in reverse, try reading pauls epistles first and get a good understanding of grace, that is the only way to apply james. you are a very hard liberal to conform but i must break you.

 

Not quite. Maybe I could have been clearer. His works were *tied* to his belief. He had works *with* his faith - which you say nullfies grace, but which James says justified him, and perfected his faith. Look, I'm just repeating what James is saying. If you have a problem with that, don't take it out on me, *discuss what James says* (how many times do I have to say this?????)

I read them both at the same time. There is no "forward" or "reverse". Both are scripture.

Whatever. Then hurry up and discuss the scriptures like I am, or this conversation is over. We're on *PAGE 5*, and you still haven't done so. I have been patient, but times up. Your next post better be good, or I'm done wasting time with you. Seriously. I have better things to do than to beg you to pull your weight in a discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus told the pharisees that if they had believed moses when he wrote about Christ then they should of known who he was. they read and only believed what they wanted to believe. maybe you should think about that.
also i have no weight to pull, i can only point to the scriptures which you read differently then i do. saving faith will produce works that is scripture. works that is used to merit salvation is demon doctrine.
i will discuss scripture with anyone untill they twist it.