Is it the permissive will of God...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by rlvaughn, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,143
    Likes Received:
    25
    On Another Thread, Bro. Joseph asked a question about the will of God relating to abortion, and asked that Calvinists answer his question yes or no. I have also asked for arminians, non-calvinists, pelagians, and "in-betweeners" to answer a couple of yes or no questions. Thus far, no one has responded. Thinking that maybe the questions are getting buried in the great number of posts on that thread, I have decided to start another topic specifically for my questions. Here they are (styled after Joseph's):

    1. Is it God's permissive will for thousands of babies to be murdered each year at abortion clinics? Yes or No? (Please limit your answer to these two choices).

    2. Is God's permissive will His will? If not, is His permissive will against His will? Yes or No? (Please limit your answer to these two choices).
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Think you have set up a false dichotomy with the use of the term permissive. WHERE in the Scripture is that concept ever even implied?

    Last time I checked, God was God and Bob wasn't. :rolleyes:

    (for which we are all grateful!) :eek:
     
  3. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    189
    Yes.

    No.

    No. (But also yes -- within the greater context of free will for humans.)
     
  4. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    1) Yes.

    2) Does God's permissive will belong to God? Of course, or else it wouldn't be specifically God's permissivce will would it? It would be someone else's permissive will. But to me that begs the question: who else's permssive will do you have in mind?
     
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,143
    Likes Received:
    25
    This terminology was used by others. I am asking them a question using their term.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Since I did not ask the original question in the original terms, I reserve the right to respond in my own terms.... :D

    A diagram I am trying is not coming out, so please imagine the following as though I were able to draw it here!

    A large circle. Within this circle a much smaller one.

    The small circle represents God's perfect will. That which would happen without sin, should we all be perfectly obedient all of the time.

    The larger circle encompases, obviously, the smaller one but also includes all He will allow to happen, all of which He can use (Romans 8:28), for the benefit of those who love Him. We may not like a lot of what happens in the outer reaches of that larger circle, but He can use it, so He allows it.

    Outside the circle -- no way will any of that be allowed to happen no matter what.

    The closer we get to God's perfect will in our lives, the more obedient that means we are, and the closer our relationship with Christ. But just as there who are the least in heaven, there are those trying to dwell on the fringes of His permissive will, but they are receiving a lot of discipline, too, for the Holy Spirit will not allow one of His to be only partially completed in terms of God's perfect will. Those who are His will all be drawn in, bit by bit, to His perfect will as our own wills learn to bend to His every moment of every day. Personally, I don't think that is going to happen for most of us until heaven, but feel free to dispute that and show me someone whose will is perfectly in line with the Father's -- I would love to meet him or her (I am NOT talking about Christ, please!).

    At any rate, that is how I see the permissive will vs. the perfect will of God. Jesus taught us to call Him "Our Father" and so I do feel it is not a wrong comparison to say that I also have had, when they were younger, that which I preferred for my children and also that which I would allow when they insisted on their own independence at their various stages. Because I am not perfect, sometimes they were right and I was wrong... [​IMG] . However, because God is perfect, His perfect will is always right and any deviation of mine from that always wrong.

    Still, He allows me that independence primarily as a teaching tool for me -- it is within His permissive will.
     
  7. Caretaker

    Caretaker
    Expand Collapse
    <img src= /drew.gif>

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Is it God's permissive will for thousands of babies to be murdered each year at abortion clinics? Yes or No? (Please limit your answer to these two choices).

    Yes

    2. Is God's permissive will His will? If not, is His permissive will against His will? Yes or No? (Please limit your answer to these two choices).

    No

    No

    God's will for man began at His creation, and ends at the culmination of the new heavens and new earth. God's will was love for man and for man to love Him. God permitted free-will, and within the permissive will of God man chose rebellion.

    You send your dog out in the yard, and you PERMIT him to run and play within the confines of the fence. He can choose to run and play, to lay on the porch, or to roll in the dog poop. You do not want him to roll in the poop but he makes that choice, so there are consequences. He can stay out in the yard and remain covered in the dog-poop, or you can wash him, and then he can come back in the house. Man has free will to roll around in the dog-poop and remain separated from God, or we can be washed clean in the blood of Christ and enter into fellowship with Him.

    Believers are within the will of God, under His dominion, in this world, but not of this world, sojouners in a foreign land.

    Non-believers are under the dominion of Satan, the god of this world, the prince of the powers of the air, he who had the authority to offer Christ all of the kingdoms of the world in return for worship.

    This is all going on within the permissive will of God, the yard fence, but is not God's SPECIFIC will:

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
     
  8. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    4,455
    Likes Received:
    1
    In, "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," Rabbi Harold S. Kushner says that God does not want bad things to happen, but He is unable to prevent it.

    I cannot say that I agree with Kushner, but this concept is easier to accept than this calvinistic idea that God somehow stands by and watches evil triumph in people's lives and does nothing about it because it is what He wanted to happen.

    What would you think of me if I watched a house with children in it burn them all to death while I simply did not bother to intervien? Although I could have prevented the fire, I simply stood by and decided not to get involved.
     
  9. jimslade

    jimslade
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Why did Jesus asked that we pray THY WILL BE DONE?

    The result of SIN is Death. (murder)

    Jesus's death was Gods perfect will.
     
  10. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, Calvinists do not necessarily think that God wants evil to happen, if by that you mean that particular evil things happening makes him happy. I believe that God allows certain evil things to happen only because He in His wisdom knows that they serve an ultimate good purpose--a good purpose that you and I with out finite brains may very well never understand, at least in this life.

    And God simply standing by and watching is certainly not a Calvinistic idea. God makes a knowing decision to allow certain things in order to bring about His perfect purpose for His creation. He is constantly working in his creation, bringing about this perfect purpose through all the good things, each one of which He actively works, and all of the evil things, each one of which He consciously permits.

    And I have to say, that even now as I am going through a time of great trial, I find much more comfort in my God, who has decided to allow this great suffering for a good purpose than I ever would if I believe that God simply could not stop the evil from happening. Why would I trust that sort of God at all--one who is doing the best He can, but is simply not powerful (or knowledgeable) enough to protect us from evil? What comfort would that give me? What assurance would I have that no matter how bad things get, they are not out of His control? If God cannot prevent bad things from happening, what assurance do we have that Satan will not triumph in the end?
     
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    5,143
    Likes Received:
    25
    My main objective for bringing up these two questions can be found in the "no" answers to question No. 2: Is God's permissive will His will?

    I am wondering why someone would call something God's "will" and then say it isn't His "will"? If God's permissive will is not His will, to whom does it belong? If God's permissive will is not His will, why does He allow it to happen? If God's permissive will is not His will, then why not use some other term? Is there another term that some use/prefer?
     
  12. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    189
    It is in the sense that one of God's overarching concerns is that we have freedom to choose right and wrong, although the bad choices we make are certainly not according to His best desires for us and others.

    He desires for us to have freedom of choice/action (free will).

    [ December 30, 2002, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  13. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    Youve read that book too eh Helen

    -Discerning the Will of God-

    well ive got a few problems with it - since it tries to be one or the other - of course I always never got the books point [​IMG]

    lets look at yer questions rivaughn

    #1 - Is it God's permissive will for thousands of babies to be murdered each year at abortion clinics?

    No

    #2 - Is God's permissive will His will? If not, is His permissive will against His will?

    No and no

    Let me explain my view

    To define wills of God let me first define God
    Im going to work with that book Helen

    1 - He is Creator - which means He is in control of everything - Nothing can violate that

    2 - He is the source of all that is good and moral - only sin can violates this will

    3 - God is our Father - and as such has certain parts of our life planned down to the famed (dot)

    The three wills are - sovereign - moral - individual

    the problem is that when you try and change the terms you try and change the boundaries

    I see you trying to add to the boundary of moral will - which contains only good - to become something that includes evil

    When you have God interacting with evil - you have to deal with His Sovereign will not moral - the problem is that Satan is trying to become more powerful then God - this would allow Satans will to override Gods
    will. One of Satans methods is by taking us who were given something angels never were - and making us try and grasp the very stars within our hands - The Fall of Mankind -- Tower of Babel --- and the very worship of science that pervades our culture with cloning, evolution, and such
     
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    Yes and yes... Does not God have to right to carry out his will?... When we say thy will be done do we believe it or do we want Gods will to be our will?... Did the human side of Jesus really want to die when he said... Father if it be
    "Thy Will"... let this cup pass from me... but not "My Will But Thine Be Done"? He was bowing in humble submission to the will of the Father... If there be any other way let this cup pass from me. "Was not this his permissive will in action... Did he want his Son to die?"

    I know I did not will my own Salvation and had as much interaction in obtaining it as I had in birthing myself into the natural world... Then again I've been to the Potters House where the potter has power over the clay to form it according to his will!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ January 02, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...