Featured Is it the sinner's fault that he will go to hell?

No, you said that you were reformed before I was born. So what?

Why say that?

What advantage do you think that gives you?

 

There is no advantage, but that in no way means you cannot listen to the other side. Sometimes they have an insight into an issue that sharpens our belief in God's sovereignty. The way I worded that was unnecessary. I have no desire to turn our civil discussions into an Iconoclast situation. Things are not going well today, and I apologize. I grew up in the same state you live in, and that means something to me also.

 

Yes, KYR this is his interpretation of the story. And that person be none other than "Jesus" who is sinless .....but then would jealously not be considered sin? Christ would never be jealous would he? But now God is a jealous God, right?!?

My point is....interpretation can be pretty tricky.....what are the motives behind them might be a good question to ask.:smilewinkgrin:

 

Rick..... what are you on your high horse for? Maybe he is telling you he has some long term experience with it. Chill!

 

Thank you for the kind words, but he had a right to post that. I take some medicine for my back and sternum (bypass) for pain, and the prescription was four days late. I am not a happy camper. I really should not post when something like that happens.

 

Been there & done that.....probably perkasets!

What you really dont want to do is bench presses....LOL

 

So Winman is saying the elder son represents Christ? Yes, you're right, Christ would never be jealous. I agree with Luke from a long closed thread:

It's consistently demonstrated within the types of the scriptures that the first(born) always becomes jealous of the second(born), and then the enmity between the two ensues, i.e., Cain & Abel, Ishmael & Issac, Esau & Jacob, Leah & Rachel, Saul & David, the Jews & the Gentiles, God knew the Jews would be provoked to jealousy with the appearing of His Son and the incoming of the Gentiles to the kingdom. Whenever I see that element of jealousy or discord from the first towards the last I can't help but think jealousy of the Jews of the Old Covenant towards Christians of the New Covenant

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32:21

19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Ro 10

44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed. Acts 13

When therefore they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ? For he knew that for envy they had delivered him up. Mt 27:17,18

And as they spake unto the people, the priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, being sore troubled because they taught the people, and proclaimed in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. Acts 4:2

And there also came together the multitudes from the cities round about Jerusalem, bring sick folk, and them that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. But the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy, Acts 5:16,17

But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people. Acts 17:5

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 But he was angry, and would not go in: and his father came out, and entreated him.
29 But he answered and said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, and I never transgressed a commandment of thine; and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 but when this thy son came, who hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou killedst for him the fatted calf. Lu 15

11 And when they received it, they murmured against the householder,
12 saying, These last have spent but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.
13 But he answered and said to one of them, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a shilling?
14 Take up that which is thine, and go thy way; it is my will to give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? or is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last. Mt 20

 

10-4

I have had a tough week and I can see it affecting my posting on here. I apologize.

 

Yes.

Jesus Christ

Nobody else.

 

Agree with that, don't agree that the elder son in the simile represents Christ.

 

Good man....:thumbsup:

 

Well, the scriptures directly tell us that Jacob and Esau had committed no evil while they were in their mother's womb. If they had died in their mother's womb, or even shortly after being born, would they be guilty of sin? You tell me.

In Luke 15 Jesus describes a shepherd with 100 sheep. Only one goes out and becomes lost, the shepherd searches and recovers this one sheep. Jesus said there is more joy in heaven over this one sinner who repents than 99 just persons who need no repentance.

Now who in the world could these 99 persons who need no repentance be? If Jesus believed Original Sin, it would be impossible for these persons to exist, yet it is Jesus himself who said this. I do not believe Jesus would say such a misleading thing, even in a parable. Parables represented spiritual truths, not falsehood.

There are other scriptures that support that little children are not sinners. Deut 1:39 shows that God did not hold the children responsible because they did not yet know between good and evil.

Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

God did not allow the Jews who sinned in the wilderness to enter the Promised Land, a figure of heaven. But God did allow their children to enter because they did not know between good and evil in that day.

Jonah shows God spared Nineveh primarily because there were 120,000 little children who could not discern between their right hand and left hand.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

In verse 10 God implies that he had made these children. Men are not born children of the devil as many falsely teach, but children of God.

In verse 11 God asks Jonah whether he SHOULD NOT spare Nineveh. In other words, God is saying he SHOULD spare Nineveh because it is JUST. Why? Because there were 120,000 very small children there who were guilty of no sin. They were just as sinless as the cattle there.

There is more scripture that shows children are not guilty until they mature and understand sin.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

This verse shows that at some age children mature and know between good and evil.

By the way, this verse utterly refutes Total Depravity as held by Calvinists, because it says the child can refuse evil and choose good. :thumbsup:

There have probably been billions of children who have died before they were old enough to sin, I believe these are the 99 just persons who do not need repentance Jesus spoke of. But note there is no celebration for these persons. The elder son was angry because there was never a celebration for him.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

I find it impossible to believe that Jesus himself would speak of imaginary persons who could not possibly exist. No, Jesus spoke of persons who need no repentance, they must exist. No way would Jesus imply false doctrine.

 

I had no idea that you believed such a thing.

You actually believe there are those that have lived sinless lives.

Wow.

 

I believe it because the scriptures and Jesus himself said it:

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

You go ahead and believe Augustine and Calvin, I will believe Jesus and the apostle Paul :thumbs:

 

If we are saved, it is God's fault. If we are damned, it is our own fault.

 

I admit I often post in a mocking manner, that is because I have little tolerance for stupidity.

As far as the scriptures, I read them and ask God to show me their true meaning. I do not mindlessly believe what others say. If that offends you, too bad.

 

Winman, you believe you don't need others to help you understand the complex teachings of the Scriptures because GOD SPEAKS TO YOU.

There is no greater arrogance among mortal men- not anywhere.

 

I don't completely agree. While teachers are a God given and beneficial tool, the epitome of arrogance is saying we NEED them over the Spirit within...man relying on man.

 

Oh, I'm Sure There Will Be...

...tons of souls standing before the great throne of judgment blaming everything, everybody, and even God for their going to eternal damnation.

And while their blood may be on their hands, I am sure that by way of my own failure to witness as I should, or live as I should, there will be blood on my hands.

But, I can't begin to believe that God would be a fault for anyones being lost and banished to hell.

After all, He is God. :thumbsup:

 

No I Owe You an Apology...

I simply meant that if he were insinuating that you and the others, he lumped into that team agreeing against him on this topic, well he was off base. In truth, you and I have a great number of differences on topics here on the BB, but as far as being one in Jesus, we are on that team forever, and at the end of the day; we will be in eternity together. And when it comes down to it, regardless of the differences of opinions we have had in the past on this board, we are truly one in the same spirit.

I just didn't want our brother to think that any of us had teamed up to attack his thoughts. That just wasn't true. I now I only jumped into this topic to send Icon a upbeat message.

If you were offended, I am truly sorry. :flower: