Is it wrong to learn Greek?

Amen, Brother Archangel7 -- Preach it!

May all God's best blessing fall upon you,
Brother Archangel7, your family, and your
ministry this day and throughout the
following week. May this be done by God's
rich and bountiful grace and mercy that
we might be able to give all the more
glory and honor unto our blessed Lord and
Savior: Jesus, the Christ. Amen!

 

May we all note you used a standard Greek lexicon, why not use one that is relavant to Koine Greek?


4977. scizw schizo skhid’-zo; apparently a primary verb; to split or sever (literally or figuratively):—break, divide, open, rend, make a rent.

4977. scizw schizo; from a prim. root scid- schid-; to cleave, split:—

NAS-divided (2), opening (1), split (1), tear (2), tears (1), torn (4).

4977 scizw schizo skhid’-zo

apparently a primary verb; TDNT-7:959,1130; v

AV-rend 5, divide 2, open 1, break 1, make a rent 1; 10

1) to cleave, cleave asunder, rend
2) to divide by rending
3) to split into factions, be divided

So what if you come up with defintions to support your misunderstanding, every reference you have given indicates the Heavens are in a state of disrepair. I gave my resources to show "open" is part of the defintion, also "open" is directly related to every one of your definitions, Anyone with any common sense will know when the Lord opened the Heavens it was not a solemn event. You're running wild witrh a tangent, grasping for straws trying to justisfy your arguement. Common sense squashes your rant into smithereens.

 

Do you not see that open is definitely part of the definition? "Open" is there to show that the different Bibles used that word to translate schizo, but the actual definition does not include opening. I will also add that the lexicons used by Arch are held in MUCH higher regard by those who know Greek than Strong's, and I imagine that most of us on the board who know Greek would concur.

Hey, Brother Ed - what do I need to do to get one of your prayers said for me?

 

Precepts, it seems that you think that by "standard Greek", AA meant modern greek or something. He didn't. These are koine or classical greek lexicons--they are just the definitive ones, the ones that are used as standards. BAGD (or whatever order they're placing their names in of late) is the standard of the standards of koine greek.

 

Funny you would even trash the NAS Greek lexicon for it's inclusion of the word "Opening" in the defintion of "schizo", then try to impose youir acceptence of standard Greek over ther Koine greek used in the New Testament, but then i do see your practice to deceive me and others by so doing. I just cannot figure out why yall keep practicng to deceive the very "elect"?

Are you so puffed up and full of pride that you think anyone hasn't noticed what you just did? You are opposed to yourself by your pride, that is truly a shame for such an intelligent young man.

Yours and his use of the lexicons are only another measure to use those to which you agree in the effort to promote mv's, shameful.

 

So the NASB changed the rendering from the stronger ASV rendering, back to one like the KJV - and they're just plain wrong to have done so? Are the NASB translators incompetent?

 

Now I also suppose yall will say the Heavens weren't opened when the father said,"This is my beloeved Son in whom I am well pleased"?

I'm afraid yall are in turn limiting the definition of 'Opened", typical.

 

What in the world does this have to do with what I posted to you?

Out with diversionary tactics!

 

Does anyone else see the irony here? "The swine said to the dog, 'Stop eating so much, you're going to be a fat pig!'" see the irony? Thanx Precepts for yet more ammo. Stalking time for dissin' Ed's sister...

 

The Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature is *the* lexicon for Koine Greek. Strong's (which you've used) is a *concordance* with a Greek dictionary appended, and isn't a Greek lexicon proper. But even Strong's recognizes that the meaning of the verb carries the sense of something being forcefully divided in two. Look closely at the entries you've given and you'll see this is so.

Note that the actual definition part (*before* the dash) says "to split or sever," while the part *after* the dash is *not* part of the a definition but rather a list of the various ways the KJV translates it.

Note that the actual definition part (*before* the dash) says "to cleave, split," while the part *after* the dash is again not part of the definition but rather a list of the various ways the NAS translates it and the number of times it uses each English word.

Note that this entry begins with the *same* list of how the AV translates the Greek word as in Entry #1 with the addition of the number of times it uses each English word; and that the definition proper says "to cleave, cleave asunder, etc."

In other words, even though these entries acknowledge that the KJV and NAS both translate the Greek word as "open" and "opening" on a single occasion, none of these Strong's entries actually define the Greek word as meaning "to open."

Translation: "Never mind what all the Greek lexicons *say* it means; it *really* means what the English of the KJV says it means. If you agree with the Greek over the KJV's English, that's obviously 'your misunderstanding.'"

You honestly don't get it, do you? When the heavens were torn open at Jesus' baptism, they were not left "in a state of disrepair;" they were left exactly the way God *wanted* them left -- with the barrier between God and humanity *removed* because of the ministry and work of Jesus. This was an awesome and joyful event, the answer to Isaiah's prayer (Isa. 64:1) and the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. Praise God!

 

It's not the definition of the English word "opened" that's the issue -- it's the definition of the Greek word σχιζομενους that's the issue.

 

S.Marke I:10 (KJV1611):

And straightway comming vp
out of the water, hee saw the heauens
||opened, and the Spirit like a doue
descending vpon him.

Sidenote: || Or. clouen, or rent.

S.Marke I:10 (KJV1611alt1):

And straightway comming vp
out of the water, hee saw the heauens
clouen, and the Spirit like a doue
descending vpon him.

S.Marke I:10 (KJV1611alt2):

And straightway comming vp
out of the water, hee saw the heauens
rent, and the Spirit like a doue
descending vpon him.

Mark 1:10 (Amplified Bible)

And when He came up out of the
water, at once he [John] saw the heavens
torn open and the [Holy] Spirit like
a dove coming down [to enter] into Him.

Don't need to learn Greek, need to read
the REAL KJV, the 1611 Edition (KJV1611)

May great blessings from God be unto
Brother Archangel7, his family, and his
ministry this very week. Amen!

 

It too bad that some do not know as much Greek as you do. You know that Holy Ghost Greek as it once was called by some ignorant folks.

You are already deceived by your own admission and lack of knowledge.

When I was beginning to read and only understood simple words I used a simple dictionary at first. But then later....

1 Cor. 13:11, “ When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things..

 

Well...What do you recomend??

 

Well...What do you recomend?? </font>[/QUOTE]There are many. There are lexicons that give the meanings in classical Greek. How it was used among the philosophers. How it was used in the papyri. How it was used among the Early Chruch Fathers. How it is used in the NT and other Christian Literature.

Just to name a few:

Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell & Scott
A Patristic Greek Lexicon by G.W.H. Lampe
Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by Moulton & Milligan
Greek-English Lexicon by Louw and Nida
A Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature by BAGD
Theological Dictionary of the NT
Word Pictures in the NT by A.T. Robertson
The New Linguistic and Exegetical key to the Greek NT by Rogers Jr. and Rogers III
Intermediate New Testament Greek A Linguistic and Exegetical Approach by Richard A. Young
A Grammar of the Greek NT in Light of Historical Research by A.T. Robertson
A Greek Grammar of the NT by Blass De Brunner translated and edited by Funk
Syntax of NT Greek by Brooks and Winberry
Basics of Biblical Greek by Mounce

 

How about a change of flavors?

In John 21 there is a dialogue between Jesus and Peter. Without a knowledge of even basic Greek, most read it and think, "So what?" But there is so much more there!

Jesus was using one word for love (agapao), but Peter was answering with a different word (phileo) for the first two questions. But, on the third, Jesus used the word that Peter had been using (phileo), 'brotherly love' instead of 'selfless love'. That is why Peter was grieved, because Jesus lowered what He was asking for down to Peter's level, and Peter knew why.

But, by only using an English translation, people have no way of knowing this. I have heard many messages delivered on that text, and none of them had any idea that there were two different words in play.

I had the opportunity to preach on this passage some time ago. I focused on the differences between what Jesus was asking, and what Peter was replying. The congregation was able to see the angst of Peter regarding the third question for the first time. Without looking to the Greek, they would have never known.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Thanx!

 

What in the world does this have to do with what I posted to you?

Out with diversionary tactics! </font>[/QUOTE]Archangel and i have been discussing the use of schizo defined as opened in Mark 1:10 for nearly three pages dear, where have you been?