Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, Mar 25, 2007.
I wonder what text of Scripture he uses to preach about American politics? So far as I have been able to tell, the Bible does not talk about these things and it makes me wonder how someone can use the Bible to address something God never addressed. That is a case of violating the third commandment ... taking God's name in vain by using God's name for something he wouldn't use it for.
The pulpit is a sacred trust, to be carefully guarded by preaching the word, not the political opinions of man. Men like Jerry Falwell, and apparently this little known Baldwin, have abused that trust by turning the pulpit into a political stump.
Politics is religion for politics is a determination of who will have rule over our lives. Whether one desires to live in an atheistic Communist state, an Islamic Sharia state or a God honoring republic is a pretty big deal and would determine whether or not we live in a free nation or a fascist/communist one. If our Baptist forefathers didn't preach about politics we never would've had freedom of religion in America. Yet, today's state licensed pastors are critical of men who speak out against the loss of freedom in America and desire to do something about, rather than join their brethren in preaching against it?
Finally, "Little known Baldwin" is just an odd statement. Is it important for a pastor to be largely known for his words to have weight? Even if this were important how much more widely known does someone have to be than being a candidate for the vice-presidency of the United States of America? Does that make Pastor Larry in Michigan "minutely known"?
Pastor Baldwin understands that you can't keep God in a box at your church building to be used for service once a week. As Christians God should be at the center of everything we do, home, work, play and politics! The problem with America today is that we have so many members of the clergy who teach about God on Sunday morning, and then support political candidates who God would never approve of in the voting booth. As Christians we should always do what is RIGHT regardless of popularity or one the outcome may be.
Pastor Larry has known who Pastor Baldwin is for many years now, his "little known" jab was just his way of saying that he doesn't like Pastor Baldwin.
No it's not at all. Our choices of surrender determines who has rule over our lives. Millions of believers in oppressed countries through church history have not had the benefit of American democracy but still lived under the lordship of Christ. In fact, they were probably stronger Christians to most Americans are.
Think about it: The NT was written in a time of tremendous religious oppression. In fact, it was the time when they routinely killed Christians, including the founder, Christ himself. And in writing to believers in the midst of this extreme religious persecution, there is not one word in the inspired Scripture about religious freedom, social revolution to obtain religious freedom, or any such thing. Paul, Peter, John, and others had not one word of command to the church to do what Baldwin, Falwell, and others are doing.
The reason is simple: We have a higher kingdom that will long outlast the trivial victories won in the political realm. To preach politics is to compromise the gospel. It is unconscionable for the church.
Individual Christians can and should be involved in the political process. But the church corporately must not. We must not attach the name of Jesus to political matters.
Do you really think the church of Jesus Christ depends on religious freedom? Historically the church has always been stronger in oppressed state. When Jesus said "I will build my church," he didn't mean through American politics. He meant through the gospel.
I can't speak about "state licensed pastors" since I don't know any. I know many whose commitment is to preach the word of God. Since that is my commitment, I do not preach politics. I can't find any place where the Bible addresses the need for religious freedom.
Baldwin is hardly well known in the larger circle of things. I have never heard of Baldwin apart from the few people who talk about him here. I have never seen anything about Baldwin that wasn't linked to from this website. He is not a serious candidate for any national political office. And yes, I am not even "minutely known." I am far less known than that.
[quoet]Pastor Baldwin understands that you can't keep God in a box at your church building to be used for service once a week. As Christians God should be at the center of everything we do, home, work, play and politics! The problem with America today is that we have so many members of the clergy who teach about God on Sunday morning, and then support political candidates who God would never approve of in the voting booth. As Christians we should always do what is RIGHT regardless of popularity or one the outcome may be.[/quote]Yes, and what is right is not to preach things that God didn't say. God should be at the center of our politics. The church should not be at the center of politics. You are confusing issues.
You must have me confused with someone else. I don't know Pastor Baldwin. I don't know where he lives. I have never talked to him or heard him speak. I have read only a few articles from him. Everything I know about Baldwin has come from the precious little that has been said about him here on the BB (from the two or three people that bring him up). I have never seen any reference to him outside the BB.
So I don't know. I have no connection with him. My only dislike is not for him personally. It is for the fact that some people want to trivialize God and the gospel by using the church as a platform for politics.
So if you are aware of a command or passage that says the church should preach about religious freeom or politics, throw it out here and let's discuss it.
That is not the mandate of the church. There is not one word of command to the NT church to be involved in politics. And as pastors, we must have the integrity to limit our message to the message of the NT. That is all we are authorized to preach.
Question: In the 20th century, was it the Chinese who have been evangelizing the world under the PRC, perhaps Soviet communism allowed the Word to flourish, the Cuban system maybe? How about the socialist French, Germans or Mexicans? Orrrrr was it the Americans who lived under the banner of religious freedom as a result of brave men who fought for a free republic and brave pastors that spoke in favor of it?
I'm not calling for a revolution, I'm calling for obedience to the higher power of this land known as the Constiitution and a desire to see a return of Godly men like John Clarke and Roger Williams.
No, I don't think the church of Jesus Christ depends on religious freedom but evangelizing the world certainly needs that freedom.
Praise God! I assumed you were the head of an incorporated 501c3 church. My apologies for the error.
Sounds like you'll fit quite comfortably in the fascist state being prepared for a once free America.
Can you point me to the larger circle of things so I can understand who is well known and who isn't?
What does "serious" candidate mean? I thought he was pretty serious. Is he silly because he didn't have an R or D next to his name, didn't show up on the Fox War channel, ABC, NBC or CBS, or is it because he advocates for that other archaic document, known as the Constitution?
I guess he just refrains from talking about politics based on some higher ideology?
The gospel flourished in all those places since the gospel is the "power of Christ" not the power of religious institutions. But how is this relevant? The question is not about the benefits of freedom or not. The question is about What should the church preach? Should we limit our preachign to the Bible? Or should we preach things that the Bible doesn't address?
I believe in the latter. I hate hte fact that the gospel is associated with the antics of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. That doesn't help the cause of Christ.
Fine, but is that the mandate of the church to preach adn teach about? If so, then what passage do you preach it from? So far as I know, there is no passage from which we would preach any theory of politics or consistutional law. Do you have a suggestion?
No it doesn't. Evangelizing the world needs the authority of Christ (Matt 28:19-20). The book of Acts is the story of how the church grew in persecution and without the benefit of the American Constitution. Why would we depend on the american political system when we can depend on God?
You are confusing things. The state doesn't license preachers to preach. Some states license clergy to perform marriages. But the license to preach comes from a church or denomination. Furtheremore, 501c3 is not a state license, nor is incorporation 501c3. All churches are considered tax-exempt whether they are formally 501c3 or not. Incorporation is a legal status designed to protect the church and its members. So please do some study to find out what you are talking about here before continuing to attack others. I am licensed and ordained by my church, not the state. Our church is incorporated but is not 501c3. None of the above is in anyway state approval of our message or aim. They can have it back whenever they want it.
How would a gospel preacher fit in a facist state? And why does insisting that we preach the Bible warrant this personal attack. I am a committed capitalist (too capitalist for some on this board). I reject communism or facism. I reject the increasing size and scope of our government. But I do that as an individual, not as a pastor preachign from the pulpit. And the reason is simple. My mandate is the "preach the word" (2 Tim 4:2). If you can show me your position in the Bible, then I will consider it. But so far, all you give is your opinion, most of which I agree with, none of which I find in the Bible.
Read newspapers, watch CNN, MSNBC, Fox, and the like. They generally cover the well known political figures.
As I have explained before, "serious" means someone who can win or influence the process significantly. Baldwin is not serious at this time. He may get serious one day, and if he does, I will take a look. But as of now he isn't.
For my dollar, I would prefer pastors stick to Scripture. It actually has the power to change people's lives, something the Constitution can never hope to do.
Even the secular Bumper Sticker I saw understood
that "Jesus is Coming Soon" is a reason to work:
JESUS IS COMING!
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required. Luke 12:48
How does that apply here, LE?
The original question is about apathy. The soon return of Christ should not at all cause apathy. However, it should cause us to be energetic about the mission of the church, which is the gospel.
Let me ask you guys this: If I decided this week that I wanted to preach on the loss of religious freedom in America, what text would I use and why?
Suppose you are right, and it is every pastor's responsibility to preach politics. And suppose Pastor Larry gave a sermon this sunday that essentially said "Vote Republican! It is your Christian duty!" Would that make you happy? I think not. Very likely you would quickly condemn Pastor Larry for mixing politics with religion.
Vote Ron Paul, it's your Christian duty.
We don't know when Jesus is coming again. We just know He is.
We do know we're not going to be here too long. Many who've thought Jesus was coming again in their time have long ago passed.
We do know we're expected to live according to His commandments while we're here and that we have a duty to work towards justice amongst us in this life.
He will come when He is ready and we probably won't be expecting it.
I never said that pastor's should "preach politics", I said that God should be at the center of everything we do. The problems we have is because most Christians have God in one area of their lives, and don't make him a part of the other areas, like politics. We need to have a Christian Wordlview where God is at the center of everthing we say and do!
You are right, I would not be happy with any pastor who said "Vote Republican!", that would mean that they didn't have God in mind, but the GOP in mind, I doubt God would support half of the candidates who run on the GOP tickets!
The major news media usually only covers the front-runners from the two major parties, they are even doing their best to ignore the well known GOP candidate Ron Paul during this upcoming election. I did however do a quick search on CCN and found a transcript from one of their shows that had Pastor Chuck Baldwin as a guest, even before he was a Constitution Party candidate:
In 1985 the Pastor Baldwin's church was recognized by President Ronald Reagan for its unusual growth and influence. I guess he is a little more known that Pastor Larry thought:
I absolutely agree. This is what I preach.
You have more faith than I have.
The point is that Ron Paul is not well known as of now. Go out on the street, and do a name recognition poll. Ask them to name all the presidential candidates they can think of, from any party. See what number Paul gets.
There's nothign wrong with not being well known. He has a lot of time between now and then. I would like to see him do well. I am concerned by what seems a lack of discernment about foreign affairs, and a naivete about the news media. But from what I have read here, I would agree with much of what he says. But he is not well known.
So two fairly obscure new stories make someone well known in national politics? I don't think so. Again, do a name recognition poll.
Or just ask people "Who is Ron Paul" or "Who is Chuck Baldwin" and see what the response is.
Moving back to a previous question to which no one has responded, let's say I wanted to preach about religious freedom in America this week. What text would I use and why?
The Mayflower Compact:
BTW, great post, JGrubbs!!:thumbs: