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Is KJV's rendering at Isaiah 18:4 unusual?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Jul 27, 2008.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I am wondering about a place where the KJV differs from the pre-1611 English Bibles of which it was a revision.

    a phrase from Isaiah 18:4

    heat after the rain (1540 Great Bible)
    heat drying up the rain (1560 Geneva Bible)
    heat after the rain (1568 Bishops' Bible)
    heat upon herbs (1611 KJV) with 1611 marginal note "Or, after rain."

    Which of these renderings "rain" or "herbs" is the more accurate rendering of the Hebrew word [if either]? Does anyone know the likely source of these two renderings or of either one? The Hebrew word seems to be a word that the KJV usually translated "light" so that both "rain" and "herbs" seem to be unusual renderings for it.

    The 1842 revision of the KJV has "heat from the sun" at this verse.
     
    #1 Logos1560, Jul 27, 2008
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The KJV note reads:

    >>>So 2 Kin. 4. 39. ch. 26. 19.

    Some of the older lexicons include the meaning ‘herb’.
    e.g. Gesenius' Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures. page 24

    Rob
     
    #2 Deacon, Jul 28, 2008
  3. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    For so the LORD said unto me,
    I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs,
    [and] like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest. (KJV) ​
    The English translation of the Septuagint by Sir Brenton (1851) --
    For thus said the Lord to me,
    There shall be security in my city, as the light of noonday heat,
    and it shall be as a cloud of dew in the day of harvest.​
     
    #3 franklinmonroe, Jul 28, 2008
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the information.

    The plural form of this Hebrew word was translated "herbs" two times (2 Kings 4:39 and Isa. 26:19) and two times "light." It still seems unusual that the singular form translated "light" over 100 times was translated as a plural "herbs" at only this one verse. It would seem to be at least an interpretation and not a literal rendering.

    It seems that the rendering "rain" in the text in the pre-1611 English Bibles and in the marginal note of the 1611 KJV was based on Jewish Tradition.
    The 1602 Spanish Valera Bible also has "rain" [lluvia] at this verse. The 1534 Luther's German Bible also seems to have "rain" [regen] at this verse.

    Lamsa's English translation of the Syriac Peshitta has "heat upon the river" at this verse.
     
    #4 Logos1560, Jul 28, 2008
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I found something more in the older edition of the ISBE.

    Herb

    (5) Hebrew: ’oroth, Hebrew: ’owroth (plural only), "green plants" or "herbs." In 2 Ki 4:39 the Talmud interprets it to mean "colewort," * but it may mean any edible herbs which had survived the drought.
    In Isa. 26:19 the expression "dew of herbs" is in the margin translated "dew of light" which is more probable (See DEW), and the translation "heat upon herbs" (Isa. 18:4 the King James Version) is in the Revised Version (British and American) translated "clear heat in sunshine."
    Orr, James. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915)

    * colewort - cole•wort \ˈkōl-ˌwərt, -ˌwȯrt\ COLE esp : one (as kale) that forms no head
    Mirriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition

    Rob
     
    #5 Deacon, Jul 28, 2008
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The old Jewish Commentary on Isaiah by Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra as translated by Michael Friedlander
    has "after rain" at Isaiah 18:4 and suggests "compare 'the cloud of his rain' (Job 37:11)" (p. 86).
     
    #6 Logos1560, Aug 14, 2008
  7. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Again the superiority of the KJB!

    Herbs would be most effected by their thriving in the heat of the sun after a hearty rain.

    Afterall, what happens to dirt after a rain? It dries up, cracks, and has no life in the heat of the sun.

    This passage is speaking of the blessings of the Lord, not the drying up after a rain in the desert.:godisgood:

    My Bible is ALIVE! My Bible is ALIVE! My Bible is ALIVE!
     
    #7 Salamander, Aug 14, 2008
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Salamander: Again the superiority of the KJB!

    Not really.

    Herbs would be most effected by their thriving in the heat of the sun after a hearty rain.

    Depends upon the situation.

    Afterall, what happens to dirt after a rain? It dries up, cracks, and has no life in the heat of the sun.

    And what happens if it stays wet? All sortsa noisome things grow in it, or it dissolves & washes away.

    This passage is speaking of the blessings of the Lord, not the drying up after a rain in the desert.

    But it's using a comparison.

    My Bible is ALIVE! My Bible is ALIVE! My Bible is ALIVE!

    And so is everyone else's here, regardless of which versions.
     
    #8 robycop3, Aug 15, 2008
  9. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    Such sound "reasoning" , Roby!:laugh:
     
    #9 Salamander, Aug 21, 2008
  10. Lukasaurus

    Lukasaurus Member

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    This is just one examples of the purification of the english text. Small errors that are not doctrinal in the preceeding english Bibles, purified in the KJB.

    I am KJB #4 and #5
     
    #10 Lukasaurus, Sep 3, 2008
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Apparently it worx as you have no counter.
     
    #11 robycop3, Sep 5, 2008
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, it's "updating", not "purification". This process is still ongoing.
     
    #12 robycop3, Sep 5, 2008
  13. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    :laugh: Wrong! Once the pinnacle has been reached the procession is downward.

    There's NOTHING wrong with the KJB, only when those suggest there is anything wrong with it is there an infraction.

    The process of rain, even in a blight/ where the rain is so prevelent that the crops die, there is still LIFE.
     
    #13 Salamander, Sep 6, 2008
  14. Keith M

    Keith M New Member

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    Salamander, just which of the various KJVs is it that's the perfect one?

    BTW, it isn't KJB as you errantly call it. The proper term is KJV. Check the title page of any KJV you may have close by. Here, I'll help you out. The title page of one KJV I use quite frequently says "The Matthew Henry Study Bible King James Version." Another says "The New Scofield Reference Bible Holy Bible Authorized King James Version." Another says "Master Study Bible Authorized King James Version." Now do you see why your reference to the KJB will always be wrong? I'm sure the publishers/printers of these editions know better than you that "King James Version" is right while "King James Bible" is wrong. Of course, if you want to continue using an incorrect reference to one of the KJVs go right ahead. All your incorrect usage will show is that you don't care at all for what's correct and what's incorrect.
     
    #14 Keith M, Sep 6, 2008
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    This thread has left the discussion of the verse in question and has returned to the tired old KJVO debate.

    Closed
     
    #15 NaasPreacher (C4K), Sep 6, 2008
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