Is Lucifer Jesus or Satan?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gina B, Feb 22, 2003.

  1. Gina B

    Gina B
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    Isaiah 14:12-21
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
    All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
    Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
    Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
    **********************************************

    There's a number of things in this passage that could be related to things that happend to Jesus. Revelation also calls Jesus the morning star.
    Where in the bible does it ever say Lucifer is Satan? Why is the passage in Isaiah seen as being a bad prophecy against Lucifer? Why isn't it seen as a prophecy against the king of Babylon, fulfilled by the events that happened to Lucifer?

    Now don't get too worked up, I'm not stating what I believe, but for arguments sake pretend I am and prove me wrong. [​IMG]

    Gina
     
  2. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    In Ezekiel 28; Satan is not called Lucifer, but the verses say much the same as Isaiah 14. We know that Jesus is not the one referred to because Ezekiel 28:15 tells us "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee." We all know there was no iniquity in Jesus.

    The fact that Satan is being described in Isaiah 14 is proven in Revelation 20:10.

    JMHO
    Sue
     
  3. Gina B

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    How is it Satan being described? Perhaps it's neither Jesus or Satan, in either chapter.
    Gina
     
  4. rsr

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    From the NET Bible notes:


    The Hebrew text has rjv-/b llyh ("Helel son of Shachar"), which is probably a name for the the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon.

    What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler. Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called "the man" in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body. Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur. Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted (see J. Martin, BKCOT, 1061).
     
  5. Me2

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    Jesus or Satan..neither.

    its Adam
     
  6. Gina B

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    I've seen people say Lucifer is Jesus, with the following reasoning in addition to previously quoted "Why isn't it seen as a prophecy against the king of Babylon, fulfilled by the events that happened to Lucifer? "
    *******************************
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!same name used for Jesus
    how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Ascension and exaltation after death
    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.This refers to his death, hell meaning death
    They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? This is referring to him not freeing Israel
    All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.All the earthly kings had their glory, Jesus had no home
    But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, Death could not hold him, the branch of David, this refers to the intolerance of dark with light, to be thrust far away from your opposite
    and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword,Jesus was thrust through with a sword
    that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. stones of the pit..this is the normal description of a sepuchre
    Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, wasn't buried in family grounds
    because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people:He came to bring destruction, with a sword, not peace
    the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Speaking of the evil of him being crucified, he was the seed, he was not allowed to be worshipped and become renowned for who he was
    and on and on. [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  7. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    Gina,
    What translation of the Bible do you read?
     
  8. Gina B

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    The KJV. Usually that's it, but I'll check out other versions for comparison on occasion, my next choice after the KJV would be the RSV.
    Why?
    Gina
     
  9. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    That's what I thought. Nice.
    Anyway, here is what I found which relates to your question:

    When I looked up the name Lucifer in my new edition of Webster's dictionary, the definition of Lucifer was morning star. As we know, Jesus Christ the Lord is the morning star. Knowing by faith and study the KJV is the pure word of God, and does not contradict itself, I knew that this could not be right. Looking in an older (1960's) encyclopedia, Lucifer does not mean morning star, as the dictionary tells us, nor does it mean day star. Lucifer was a name given to the planet Venus, by ancient astromaners in Latin, meaning as you pointed out, light bearer. Venus will sometimes appear as a morning star, however, it is not a star at all, but a planet that reflects the light of the sun. I hope you see the difference here. These folks knew that this was a planet body, rather than an actual star. How well does this fit satan? Very well indeed....because he is now the phony star, not the morning star. So to tell us that Lucifer means morning star is not accurate at all, because it is only half of the truth, which means it is a lie, and satan is the father of liars. We know and should not be surprised that satan will transform himself into an angel of light, but, he most definitly is not an angel of light, just as venus appears as a star, but it has no light of it's own, and is not a star at all. I hope this clarifies this with folks that may believe that Lucifer means morning star. Thank you for your time, in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour...
     
  10. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    Sorry didn't see the question the first time.
    I have read a few articles on the NIV where it actually refers to Lucifer as the morning star so I thought this may be the case.
    I use the KJV too, 1611 [​IMG]

    Can you show where the KJV refers to lucifer as the "Morning star"? I see morning but not morning star.
     
  11. Gina B

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  12. Harald

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    Why don't you look up Isa. 14:12 in Young's Literal Translation (YLT).

    Harald
     
  13. HankD

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    IMO, it is God holding the devil in derision.

    Verse 12 begins with the little Hebrew interrogatory word EK!?

    Indicating that the verse is a question.

    Oh Lucifer "son of the morning"?
    OR : Oh Lucifer (you who would be like) the Son of the Morning?

    See verse 14 "I will be like the most High"

    He saw the Logos in His glory on the dawn of the creation and was jealous, now God holds him in derision.

    Isaiah 14
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
     
  14. Artimaeus

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    I think it is referring to Bugs Bunny and you can't prove me wrong because the Bible (all versions) doesn't SAY it isn't Bugs.   [​IMG]
    Th-th-th-th-..that's all folks. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Gina B

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    Artimaeus, do you have a better answer or did you just want to mock the existing ones?
    Gina
     
  16. I Am Blessed 24

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    "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night, forever and ever."
    Revelation 20:10

    Gina; We can tell from this verse that it is not Adam because it says 'the devil deceived them'. Also, it cannot be talking about Jesus for obvious reasons.

    If you compare Ezekiel 28:12-14, you will see that Lucifer, "day-star," can be none other than Satan.

    Sue
     
  17. Me2

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    Artimaeus is closer than can be seen here.

    Bugs was a concept made into a basic character..much like adam.
    But through many conceptual changes bugs through the years becomes more modernized.

    we are the conceptual "adam" who has been modernized via our forefathers history of activities and knowledge.

    we look at ourselves as the "flesh" and the spirit.
    both The Holy spirit and "adam" are inside us battling for control of the nature or direction we should proceed in.

    these verses are speaking of absolute as if the future is known concerning adams destiny. only not realized in our linear time yet.

    just as during salvation..our old man "adam" is left in death. Jesus rises from the dead..we "adam" dont. we're given a brand new spirit..jesus uncorruptable spirit

    [ February 23, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     
  18. HankD

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    EK!? Artimaeus?

    Or was it WILEY COYOTE? [​IMG]
     
  19. Artimaeus

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    I am sorry, Gina, I assumed that this "confusion" could not possibly be serious. I stand...uh...sit corrected.

    The passage in Isaih, no doubt, does refer to the king of Babylon directly but as is the case many times in the Old Testament there is also a secondary meaning. This is what is called a type, an illustration, a description of something or someone else in addition to the more direct and obvious meaning. An example would be the tabernacle being a "type" of heaven wherein we can see earthly descriptions of things in heaven. This passage is a "type" of Satan.

    12How art thou fallen from heaven,: (Who is the ONLY being specifically named who FELL from heaven)
    Lucifer: Bright one, i.e. morning star: (Was Jesus only the brightest of the stars or is he the sun, in comparison)
    how art thou cut down to the ground,: (Was Jesus 'cut down" or did he voluntarily empty himself to become a man?)
    which didst weaken the nations: (Has Jesus "weakend" the nations?)
    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, (Jesus would never have to make such a statement even to himself. Where is/was Jesus' attention directed, Heaven or earth?)
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: (Is Jesus going to exalt his throne or is the Father going to do it?)
    I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (Does self agrandizing fit Jesus' character to you?)
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Already a done deal for Jesus, and only an egomaniac would think it would be possible for anyone else, and who is the biggest egomaniac in the Bible?)
    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, : (All this bragging and look where he ends up. This is not a reference to Jesus leading captivity captive in Eph 4:8, nobody "brought" him down to hell. He was in the driver's seat)
    They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms: (Not very impressive is he, compare with the alpha and omega in Revelation 1, VERY impressive)

    No, Gina, this can't be Jesus nor Adam, nor even a specific King of Babylon. It can only be the power behind the earthly kingdoms, the ruler of this world, the deceiver, that devil, Satan.
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

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    Do you think Jesus is a sinner??
     

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