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Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    It would certainly help your argument that you were not trying to pass something off as your own if you will properly credit where you get your words. Otherwise it IS plagerism.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Still waiting :confused:
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    RB, with all the different threads I never saw this and I don't like skipping over anything that appears to be a genuine desire to engage the subject...it is so rare around here lately it seems.

    Truth be told, I probably could agree with that statement in some sense. After all, "no one is good but God" was the standard Jesus set even when someone tried to call him good. But, not being good, or even being enemies of God, doesn't mean one can't be changed by the means God has selected to bring reconciliation. I guess I have a problem with mutability. Is a bad person able to recognize his evil and want to stop? Is a bad person able to give up and ask for help? Is a bad person able to believe a simple message of hope? I believe so.

    Listen, RB, here is deal. It's obvious that God calls all men to repentance and faith. It's obvious men are held accountable by death and torment if they don't. It's obvious that God wants all to repent and believe. I have to believe that is possible unless scripture clearly reveals otherwise. Do you understand?

    I firmly believed Calvinistic dogma...go back to some of my original posts in 2003 if you don't believe me. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I was willing to accept it when I thought that is what scripture taught. I want to be true to the word...regardless of how difficult that is, but I cannot accept something I don't clearly see in scripture.

    I appreciate your consideration and your answer to the OP. Thanks
     
    #43 Skandelon, Dec 31, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2009
  4. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I never doubted your desire for fidelity to the Scriptures. And it is always good to see men and women committed to Holy Scripture above all things. I believe men of equal sincerity and love of the Scriptures can see thing differently. I think you would agree that there is much, much more we have in common that where we differ.

    We must both live with a clear conscience rooting and grounding our beliefs in Scripture.

    Let me say for the record, that I have no real committement to Calvinism. This may seem offensive to some Calvinists, but my committment is first and foremost to the Scripture. I have no committment to the Reformation. My committement is to the Scripture.

    There are beliefs within the Calvinistic circles I find utterly disgusting, such as some who believe it is possible that children/infants not being elect may suffer an eternal damnation.

    I was working on my computer the other night and I heard the small voice of my 4 year old son cry, "Help me, someone please help me." He sounded very scared, so I raced upstairs to find that he had crawled up on the bathroom sink counter to brush his teeth and could not get down.

    Of course, I picked him up, gave him a great big hug and kiss, and put him safely in his bed.

    As I was walking downstairs the thought occurred to me of such a one, my son, my little son, making the same cries from the pit of darkenss, eternally separated from the safe home of our gracious God. And I wept.

    I prayed for his salvation, that as soon as his mind may understand, and the grace of God lead him, he would embrace Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

    And also the thought that God would suffer such a little to undergo the eternal fires of hell, crying for help when none would be given him, as I have learned some Calvinists may think possible, is so utterably abhorable and abomnible to me, I would not permit such a person to even breathe the air in my home.

    I share this only as an example so that you know that I too am committed to Holy Scripture over any system of theology.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I don't know if I believe in Total Depravity or Original Sin. But let me explain.

    It is clear that Adam and Eve were created with the ability to either obey God or disobey. They could not have sinned if they were perfect.

    But were they still good? Could God declare his creation very good? Yes. Because they were sinless. They were pure. They had committed no sin.

    I believe the flesh itelf is the problem. Our flesh has desires, and sometimes those desires pull us toward rebellion or disobedience of God's word. Look what it says about Eve when she was tempted.

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    This fruit appealed to her fleshly desires. It looked delicious, it was beautiful to look at, and it offered wisdom. She had great desire to eat this fruit for these reasons, that is what the scriputes show.

    I personally do not see "the fall" men talk about. When Adam and Eve sinned, they gained awareness. Before they had walked around naked without being conscious of it, just like a little child often does. They had no personal conscience. They had never experienced shame or guilt before. This is the change the scriptures show, I do not see any other change.

    If they were able to sin before they ate of the fruit, and they were able to sin after the fruit, where is a change?

    I believe we are all born with these same fleshly desires inherited from Adam and Eve. We are pulled to fulfill our desires. This is obvious.

    But man could do good after Adam and Eve sinned. Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice, God said so himself.

    Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.


    I believe babies are born with these fleshly desires. They want what they want. But babies and young children are amoral. They have no concept of right and wrong and cannot be held accountable. Therefore I believe that all babies and young children are saved.

    We often talk about a sin-nature, but is that really shown in scripture? There are scriptures that show the opposite.

    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Here Paul speaks of Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law.

    Now, how do those who believe in Total Depravity answer this statement by Paul?

    I believe we all have fleshly desires that tempt us to sin, but we also have the ability to resist these desires. When a child is old enough to understand right from wrong and chooses to sin, it is at this point that they become a sinner and come under the sentence of death that was introduced by Adam when he sinned.

    Look at this statement by Paul:

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    If the doctrine of Original Sin is true, when ever was Paul alive? He would be born spiritually dead if this doctrine is true.

    However, if he were born amoral, that is not knowing good from evil, he would be spiritually alive until he was mature enough to understand right from wrong (the law). Then, when he did know right from wrong and chose to follow a sinful desire, upon sinning became a sinner and died.

    I am still studying all this. I know it goes against what the church has taught forever. But I want to know what the scriptures teach and say even if that is controversial.
     
    #45 Winman, Jan 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2010
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    For the record, I have winman on ignore.
     
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    And I can understand why. I present a great deal of scripture that you cannot answer. So, instead of attempting to answer, you and others say I am hateful and such. Clever way of avoiding the issues.

    If I did not care about Calvinists, I would ignore you. I post because I believe the doctrine error. I don't have a lot of grace, that is true. But that doesn't mean I don't care.

    Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    to answer the question of the thread title.

    Yes.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Total depravity (in and of itself) is one of those elements I find myself in agreement with my calvinistic brethren.

    Explanation(s): Total depravity is both a state of being as well as a course of action. It applies to the human race as a whole - the totality of men are depraved and each individual is in the state of being of being totally depraved.

    However not every human being has had the opportunity or means to manifest that total depravity. In addition there are "common grace" hindrances, the constraint of the Holy Spirit, the conscience, fear of reprisal of the law and "he who wields the sword not in vain" and yes even often times religion along with many other factors which hinder us from manifesting the true nature of our state of being: totally depraved.

    Take Nazi Germany as an example of how some of the "nicest" people, (Many of whom were Lutheran or Catholic) became mass murderers or at least put their stamp of approval on genocide and eugenicide.

    I saw a documentary of movie films recently discovered from a holocaust death camp. Some of the officers had their families with them and they celebrated religious holidays, had picnics and family outings with love, laughter and play abounding. Then it was back to work the next day murdering and incinerating the innocent.

    Given the "right" environment to remove the hindrances, each of us is capable of the most dispicable crimes imaginable.

    I would say that it's not a matter of becoming more and more evil each day but becoming more and more embolden to mainfest the deeds of the evil heart (of which we are for the most part unaware) within us.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

    HankD​
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    :thumbs: I could not agree more.

    I've got four little ones of my own...my youngest is 2 and my oldest is 10, so I can most certainly relate.

    However, when I think of, for example, children of those in Al Queda I also hurt. I cannot just write them off as "non-elect" (not that you would),but the statistics prove that the very large majority of them will follow the error of their parents heresy.

    Wouldn't it be better for them to be killed as infants than raised in that environment? I mean, if we believe God will save all infants, then it only seems to reason that killing them young gives them more hope of eternal life than allowing them to grow up. Even if you hold to "unconditional election," the stats prove that God is not choosing to save very many of the people in that part of the world who are being taught this false teaching. Do you understand my point? I'm not trying to exaggerate or push your views beyond what you are saying, but instead I'm just trying to point out the difficulty that a system of unconditional election creates in such cases. The feelings your have expressed were some of the very problems that lead me to question my position theologically. It just didn't set right with the Spirit in me.

    I also sincerely pray for this in the lives of your children and mine. However, this is a tension I had as a Calvinist. Why pray for the salvation of someone when that has already been determined. If God has elected them, they are going to be saved and if He hasn't they won't regardless of whether or not I pray. Now, when I pray I feel that it might have some impact and influence. How do you reconcile that?

    I believe you. So how do you respond to the texts in the original post...specifically the one in Acts 28 where it shows that man "might see, hear, understand and turn" if not for their becoming calloused? Thanks
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    God hasn't given me magic glasses so that when I put them on those who are elect glow yellow and those who are not glow red. lol hahah. In other words, He has not given me the knowledge of who or who is not elect. So I preach the Gospel to everyone (as He commanded) and pray for those I love to be saved.

    I also understand God works out His will by means, not regardless of what I do or don't do. Through the preaching of the Word, the adminstration of the ordinances, our home education, et. How do I know what God is using in the lives of my children to accomplish His purpose?

    I am not seeing the difficulty you are seeing. God tells (prophesies) to Isaiah something that is a matter of fact. The people's hearts were closes, ears dull of hearing, et.

    So why did these Jews reject the Gospel, the miracles, et. while the one saying these words, the Apostle Paul, and other Jews, recieve Christ? What made them to differ?

    I believe it is the grace of God. That, indeed, for a sinner to have repentance, it must be granted by God, and to believe, is a gift from God. And of course...if God were in His ways leading these Jews to repentance, certainly He would "heal" them, that is, forgive their sins.

    I just don't see the tension or conflict in the text that you do.
     
  12. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Not a Calvinist, but let me ask you to chew on this one for starters, if this has not been quoted yet.
    Do please explain this as not saying that the natural man is not separated from God because of their sin nature, from which total depravity springs.

    Psalms 58:3

    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
     
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    It also says they have poison like a serpent.

    Psa 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

    If you take verse 3 literally, then you should take verse 4 literally. Do babies have poison like a serpent?

    But if you read the whole Psalm 58 you see this does not apply to all men.

    Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
    11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.


    So, if you read the whole Psalms 58, and do not pull out one convenient verse to fit your presupposition, you will see the Psalmist is contrasting the wicked to the righteous. Verse 4 says "the wicked". He is not saying all men are totally evil. And verse 3 is an exaggeration, just as verse 4 is. I have 8 children, and none of them could speak the day they were born, nor were they poisonous. This is hyperbole, very common in the Psalms.

    Hyperbole:

    1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
    2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
     
    #53 Winman, Jan 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2010
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    How does one respond to insane threads? Was man born depraved, you ask? Nah, he is sinless until his parents started taking him to McDonalds.

    Are you serious? Do you stay up at night thinking of these questions? They don't even merit debate. Why don't you start a thread on why the sky is not pink?
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    winman,

    hyperbole or not, it does not take away from the thought that is being conveyed.
    man is totally depraved, from the womb, and his actions are consistent with that of a serpent, lies are poison, and they speak lies as soon as they can.
    now, the lie doesn't have to be about not dipping a hand in the cookie jar, or stealing chicken from the neighbor's chicken farm.
    a deadlier, more poisonous lie is when false teachers and false prophets come and teach lies to God's children who are likened to innocent children and lambs who are easily led astray.
    in God's word, that is sometimes equated to murder.
    another lie is to credit man with what he is not, and refuse to credit to God what is due Him.
    I pray, in all good intention, that you will realize all these in God's own due time.
     
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    See, but if you believe in free will, then chances are these young people will not be saved. In the arminian belief, it would take themselves to find God whereas in the Calvinist belief, God reaches them no matter where they are. So would you rather commit these children to themselves and their own evil upbringing or to a loving, just God? Additionally, how do we know who will know Christ someday? Free will or election - we don't know who will eventually be saved so why kill someone short of them coming to faith in Christ?



    But if God will not step in to affect someone's free will, why pray? It won't do anything.
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    But, we don't believe that, you do. We do believe God will "step in" and does...just not irresistibly with a select few.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You and saturn seem to think I don't affirm that men are born sinners and in need of a savior. Without God's divine help WE COULD DO NOTHING!!! How can I be any clearer?

    The difference is that I recognize God's work in sending Christ, the apostles, the Holy Spirit, the church and the scriptures as being divine help that is sufficient to bring men to faith. Though resistible, it is still sufficient. You all continue to debate me as if I don't believe God must intervene because you neglect to acknowledge the sufficiency of His intervention already.
     
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So God steps in, man refuses. What difference does praying make then?
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why do you assume he refuses? Maybe his will is provoked and he repents this time?

    Praying could make the same difference that Moses' prayer for the Israelites made. God withheld his wrath and was patient with them, showing them mercy.

    Yes, sometimes a man refuses, sometimes he doesn't...the point is that it is the person's choice. God has given him all he needs to come, but he must be willing. With us, prayer has the potential to bring change, but in your system it matter's not...it has already been determined.
     
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