Is Man Mortal or Immortal?

Humble

Those scriptures are interesting. So do you believe that souls that are not spending eternal life in Heaven will be destroyed and cease to exist?

Maybe the answer is that God has created our souls to be immortal. That would be consistant with the first scripture that only the Lord possesses immortality.

 

These last two comments are not clear to me. I'm afraid I don't understand all of the questions.

Part of the issue is that you are taking human's eternal existence and calling it immortality.

Yes, scripture does indeed say that the saved and the lost will exist forever. But this does not necessarily mean they are immortal. Commonly today we shoehorn the definition of existing forever into "immortality." We can debate all day long about what "immortal" really means, but all I know is that the scriptures are very, very clear: only God is immortal. We are not. The scriptures above are crystal clear -- they say we start out as mortal, and seek to obtain immortality.

The scriptures do not teach annihilation.

 

I also think he is able to destroy us. I guess I am defining immortal differently. I define immortal as existing forever. I try not to confuse myself with what God could do or what he can do, only what he will do. I think we agree but are spliting hairs.

Let me try this. God can do anything, including destroy us. However He has granted us an immortal existance. We are not immortal because of us, but only because He has made us immortal. Even though He could destroy us, it is His will that we live an immortal existance.

This is confusing to me because to seek immortality implies that we may not find it. If I am right that immortality means existing forever without end then all will find it without seeking.

Just to be clear there is nothing we can do, or nothing we have to do to exist forever without end. There will never be an end to our existance, not that God could not end it, but he will not.

In the end we agree, no annihilation.

 

This is the scripture that throws me. If we who are alive possess an immortal soul how can we be perishable? What is it that we put on at death that makes us immortal? I know we exchange our mortal bodies for a new immortal body but if we already have an immortal soul how can we be (completely) perishable. I think this is what led someone I heard speculate that we do not have an immortal soul until we die.

 

Man is mortal. If there is any use in language then words have meaning. Mortal means liable or subject to death. Every human being that has ever existed has died or was or is now liable to die. Even Jesus died. This is the definition of mortal. Man is a total being. He is not merely his body, nor merely his soul and/or spirit. You cannot divide these and still have a whole man. Even though the soul does not cease to exist it can still be stated with a certainty that man is mortal. He CAN die.

When Adam sinned his spirit died, his soul (mind, heart, emotions, etc) did not die and his body did not die but he ceased to be the whole person that God had created. Adam was the only man to whom immortality was an accurate characteristic. He lost that when he sinned. Mankind will never have that again until we have a new glorified body, a soul conformed to the image of Christ, and a regenerated spirit. This will happen in heaven and until then, we are completely and thoroughly mortal.

 

Artimaeus

That was very interesting. Let me see if I understand. You are saying that if any part of us can die then we are mortal. Because our flesh can be destroyed we are mortal. And we are dead right now because we are fallen. But when we are in our reserected body with a regenerated spirit we are brought to life and given immortality. Those who are in hell will be dead even though they still exist because they do not have these things.

So existing is not the same as being alive and you need to be alive to be immortal not mearly exist. And you can exist and be dead making you mortal.

Do I have this right or did I just jump off the deep end?

I think this makes sense to me, but I need time to try to wrap my mind around it.

Thanks Art.

 

Then Matt 10 is a bluff?

Mt 10:28"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

To say that this means this means God is "able" but never does is an assumption and goes against what the normal reading of that verse would indicate.

Secondly the soul does die:

Eze 18:4"Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

Eze 18:20"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Where is this clearly taught in scripture?

Where is this found in scripture? If we are made mortal then why did Christ bring immortality?

2ti 1:10but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Then you are wrong in one of these positions. Scripture seems to teach only those in Christ gain immortality.

Prove that from scripture.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


What does “perish” mean? Perish seems to indicate the opposite of everlasting life.

Here is one definition Thayer gives for “perish”:

apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

This seems to allow for annihilationism.

What was provided by the Tree of Life?

Ge 3:22 Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

If Adam already had immortality, if Adam was already created to live forever then why remove him from access to a tree that provides something he already has?

Perhaps had he eaten of the tree he would have gained immortality but God in his grace removed that tree so that Adam would not exist forever in a fallen state.

 

As for apollumi, BDAG lexicon provides three definitions, two of which deal with "lose" or "lose out on" or "be separated from."

Death in the bible means separation, not annihilation.

Always interpret the less clear verses in light of the more clear verses. The bible does not teach annihilationism.

Further, for 19 centuries orthodox Christianity taught that our existing bodies will be ressurrected and glorified. In the last couple of generations, it has become popular to teach that we will exchange our bodies for new ones, or get another one. Not so, for the "mortal will put on immortality." Our current mortal bodies will be glorified and made immortal.

 

I agree

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

Eternal soul, either with God in Heaven or seperated from Him in Hell.

 

"Perish" does not mean death.

The bible does not teach that the lost gain immortality.

 

Is there a scripture that indicates such?

When and where does the lost man put on immortality?

 

It is my understanding that the word eternal can mean past and/or future.

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

1 Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

Thanks Artimaeus, you beat me to it.

 

Once again, where is the scripture that you get this from(immortal death)?