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Is Mary the mother of YAHWEH?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by jcf, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    God is finite as well as infinate. He had no begining and has no end. No one can be His mother.
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    All this can be resolved by considering Christ's two natures. Human and divine. His body was apart of the human aspect of Him, and that was what came from Mary. So she is the mother of His human nature; not the mother of His divinity! This is just like the argument about "God dying"; which leads some to reject His deity altogether.

    As for the egg and the sin nature; I thought it was the lack of the male seed that somehow broke the inheritance of Adam's nature. This was always taught in churches; but never really proven from scripture.

    Oh, and Matt; how were you able to post Greek characters? I recently tried to post a response with just the single character η, and it would just freeze down the posting process (blank screen) until I removed it. (However, I was able to copy yours, and it went through, as you can see).
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Two nature - via the incarnation. I have already noted that the problem here is that the RCC needs to coverup the incarnation and make it more of PROCREATION instead - so they can get Mary to "God status". In fact "all powerful like God"
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Eric, type "&" followed by the name of the Greek letter you want followed by ";", with no spaces in between all three. EG: if I want λ I type & lambda ; only with the spaces removed.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Correct, although I would clarify that His human body and human soul came from Mary. However, there is no indepedent existence of Christ's humanity apart from it's hypostatic union with the Eternal Divine Logos at conception.

    That is basically correct, but although Christ's divinity did not originate from Mary (obviously!), from conception Christ was both divine and human. Therefore it is wholly appropriate to call Mary "Theotokos" because the one she carried in her womb and gave birth to was (and is!) God Incarnate.

    The One Divine-human Person did die, but was able to so in his human nature. Because, of the "communicatio idiomatum" , one can speak of God "dying" just as one can speak of His birth from Mary.

    That's what I thought too.
     
  6. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    :rolleyes: Holy Spirit insemination... not sex with God. </font>[/QUOTE]Mary's egg was not inseminated by anyone, even the Holy Spirit. If it were Jesus would ahve been born as sinful as anyone else. you are born with the sin nature, Jesus was not,, if He had been from Mary's egg He would have. Mary only carried Jesus, He did not have to be created with an egg like you and I had to be. If He did He isn't God.
     
  7. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg Member
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    :rolleyes: Holy Spirit insemination... not sex with God. </font>[/QUOTE]Mary's egg was not inseminated by anyone, even the Holy Spirit. If it were Jesus would ahve been born as sinful as anyone else. you are born with the sin nature, Jesus was not,, if He had been from Mary's egg He would have. Mary only carried Jesus, He did not have to be created with an egg like you and I had to be. If He did He isn't God. </font>[/QUOTE]Luke 1:31, "Thou shalt conceive in thy womb...." Matthew 1:20, "That which is CONCEIVED in her is of the Holy Ghost." Note that Gabriel did not say that which is "IMPLANTED in her." It WAS Mary's egg, without the help of a man. The Holy Spirit caused her egg to conceive. He was fully human and did have to be, "created with an egg like you and I had to be." Therein lies the miracle of the virgin birth. The sin nature comes from the seed of the man(male) - Romans 5.
     
  8. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Ah, so if science could manage to fertilize an egg without a man, without sperm then you would have a sin free human, who would not have the sin nature?
     
  9. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg Member
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    And if scientists could create a universe out of nothing they would be God. :rolleyes:

    Just taking the Bible at face value. Romans chapter 5.
     
  10. Glory2God

    Glory2God New Member

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    Greg,
    Psalm51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    David's mother and father passed the sin nature to him. If it was Mary's egg then the hypostatic existence of Jesus(100%God and 100%Man)is reduced to a naturalistic explanation.Jesus then becomes part God and part man.

    Adams body was created without egg and sperm. Adam is a type of Christ.

    1Cor15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth , earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    On my original post I explained, born of a woman, made under the law.
    Ex 13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

    Using your own prooftext: Matthew 1:20, "That which is CONCEIVED in her is of the Holy Ghost."

    You missed the important thing in that verse ,"is of the Holy Ghost"

    In the other ref. in Luke we read:
    Lu 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

    Any doctor will tell you that conception does NOT take place in the womb!!!That's why the bible says"thou hast prepared me a body". After which, he placed that "holy thing" or "new thing" in her womb!! [​IMG]

    The egg thing is a part of the RCC's heresy of Imaculate Conception, which is a different thread altogether. :D
    In truth,
    Dave
     
  11. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Mary's title Mother of God is used to identify who Jesus is and not as an identifier of Mary.

    Remember in about the year 100 or around 200 there were groups who denied that Jesus was fully God and fully man
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So you want us to believe that "Jesus Christ - the Son of God" was not enough to "identify Jesus".

    And "Jesus Christ the son of Joseph and Mary" was not enough to "identify Jesus"

    Oh no no! That would never do.

    Rahter "Mary MOTHER OF GOD" was the BEST way to "identify Jesus" in a kind of "pray to Mary and make her allpowerful like Christ, sinless like Christ, all-present like Christ" way??

    When the Pope uses your so-called "identity for Jesus" to say "So that at the command of Mary EVNE GOD OBEYS!" - do you still cling to that "excuse" for why it is ok to make a god out of Mary?? Because "it is the best way to identify Jesus"????

    Who do you think they are kidding?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    Thank you for the responses folks, I was so angry I took a holiday praying the rosary for peace and balance.

    There are much calmer and more coherent heads out there than mine, thankfully.

    God Bless All!
     
  14. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    No, it wasn't - that's the whole point! Neither of those titles refer to Jesus being God, which was the reason for the great Christological Councils of the 4th and 5th centuries; Christians shed their blood to defend the fact that Jesus is God; please don't trivialise the blood of the martyrs in this way1

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  15. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob,
    You won't find any Catholics who reach your conclusion about Mary based on the title Mother of God.

    It appears to me the only people who "make a god out of Mary" are the ones who are threaten by Mary.

    Mary doesn't take away from Jesus, rather she points the way to her Son.
     
  16. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    I understand this, but it does cause confusion. It does make it sound like God had a temporal origin and end. We may understand what these thoings mean, but the rest of the world doesn't, and such language does cause a lot of confusion.

    Then, all the stuff about it not being Mary's egg. I understand the concern with this, but then now it seems to be denying that he really "came in the flesh" as John warns of. God could just as well have used a vegetation pod, or just sent the body down from Heaven fully grown. What's next? The whole thing maintained by Catholics and others discussed a year oor two ago that He did not even come out the natural way? I do believe that the development from the egg is part of what made Him truly human. The conception by the Holy Spirit is what somehow broke the sin inheritance.
    There have been freak cases of eggs beginning to develop without fertilization (not sure which species this was reported for), but that certainly did not create divine beings. IT was the Holy Spirit that made the difference.
     
  17. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Remember that the sin nature is passed down through the male. It was Adam's sin that brought the fall, not Eve's, so God using Mary's egg wouldn't have brought the sin-nature onto Jesus, even if, as I believe, Mary was not immacuately conceived.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Really? I will find NO Catholics that use those God terms for Mary? What if my neighbor is Catholic and does that very thing? Are you "sure" that can't happen?

    You claim this "Mother of God" invention of the RCC could never be spun by leading Catholics into "allpowerful like Christ" - "At the command of Mary all obey - even God", and Mary an ever-present all-hearing diety that can be prayed to by all and will answer all?

    Question - are the Popes "just any old Catholic that you might live next door to"??

    Maybe you just need to spend a bit more time worshipping at her altars and before her throne.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Really? I will find NO Catholics that use those God terms for Mary? What if my neighbor is Catholic and does that very thing? Are you "sure" that can't happen?

    You claim this "Mother of God" invention of the RCC could never be spun by leading Catholics into "allpowerful like Christ" - "At the command of Mary all obey - even God", and Mary an ever-present all-hearing diety that can be prayed to by all and will answer all?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bob, is it possible that some Seventh-Day Adventists hold to a belief or portion of theology not sanctioned or supported by the denomination? In holding to said belief or nuance of theology, do they then represent the whole of the denomination?
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If by that you mean "Do Seventh-Day Adventists have Popes that they consider to be infallible by virtue of office - Popes that make doctrinal statements that should not be considered by non-Adventists to actually represent the beliefs of the Adventist church?". Recall that the Pope is held to be infallible APART from any divine or special revelation.

    The answer is "no". Instead of that "Pope speaks for all" system of the RCC, WE have what we call the "Quinquinium". A gathering every 5 years of representatives from all divisions of the world church - to vote in assembly on doctrinal statements.

    So far we have been pretty good about saying that non-Adventists may rightly consider those voted statements to accurately reflect the church's beliefs.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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