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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Aug 21, 2014.
Can we call Charles Finney the father so to speak of much of current views on salvation?
As long as he agrees with Paul and the other Apostles I guess........as with any theologian.
Except that he made popular the views that deny original sin, how fall affected us, and that we still can freely respond in and of ourselves to the Lord jesus!
No agreement with Paul here!
Original sin is a hoax. It began (as far as I can tell) with Tertullian, the "father" of Western Christianity and one of the biggest influence on Augustine.
It began with a mis-application of Romans 5:12, after the church seems to have forgotten the distinction between the body and spirit (probably due to their fight against Gnosticism).
Tertullian also perpetrated the notion of Traducianism in an effort to support the concept of Original Sin.
Such a shame, adding error upon error.
But it's also an egregious error to think that believing is a matter of the will. Both Calvinist and Arminian embrace this error
Winman challenged me a lot on original sin, but Romans 5:19 is clear that many were made sinners because of Adam.
I tried to dismiss Original Sin but it certainly is taught in scripture.
That depends on how one tries to apply the consequences of Adam's transgression. The common doctrine, that Adam's sin brought guilt to everyone, is false. In Romans 5, Paul was speaking about physical death being passed to everyone. Compare to what he wrote in 1Cor 15:21-22. In Adam all die, but in Christ all will be raised.
Look how Paul ended chapter 4 - resurrection. And in chapter 6? Resurrection Chapter 7? This BODY of death, flesh, members, all physical. Chapter 8? The revealing of the sons of God. When? In the resurrection, when Christ returns. Chapters 9 & 10? Whoever believes in Him will not be ashamed. When? At His appearing (see 1John 2:28).
See, Paul spoke if spiritual death and the gospel in chapters 1-4, and changed in chapter 5 to bodily death and resurrection. And for 6 more "chapters" he focused on our resurrection and what will happen at that time, which is when Christ will return.
So trying to apply anything in Romans 5 to spiritual death is an abuse of scripture. Just like trying to apply 6:23 and 10:9-13 to conversion. Scriptural abuse, period.
Just stop. Look maybe you should learn a bit more before speaking. What you are posting here in this thread is nothing more that extreme reformed propganda.
Sorry Jordan, but if you are consistent with both sides of Romans 5:19, you will come to be a Universalist.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jordan, if Romans 5:19 is teaching that by Adam's one sin that all men were UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners, then the second half of the verse would have to teach that all men are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous. This is Universalism. And if you study Universalism you will see this is their #1 proof text to support their view.
But we know this view is false for two reasons.
#1 Not all men will be saved, scripture is abundantly clear on this.
#2 Men are not UNCONDITIONALLY saved. You MUST believe on Jesus to be saved, and this is a CONDITION.
To say men are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners, but CONDITIONALLY made righteous completely violates Paul's form of argument here. He is using a form of parallelism, where each side of each verse is treated equally.
So, to be consistent with Paul's form of parallelism here, you have only two possibilities.
#1 ALL MEN are UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners because of Adam's one sin, and likewise ALL MEN are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous because of Christ's one obedience.
#2 ALL MEN are CONDITIONALLY made sinners when they sin as Adam did, likewise, ALL MEN are CONDITIONALLY made righteous when they believe on Jesus to save them as Jesus believed his Father to raise him from the dead.
Those are the only two possibilities that are consistent with Paul's form of argument Jordan.
#2 is the correct answer. When men conditionally sin as Adam did, they are judged "sinners" as Adam was, and sentenced to death as Adam was.
Likewise, when men conditionally believe on Jesus to save them as Jesus trusted his Father, they are judged "righteous" and given the free gift of eternal life as Jesus was.
This is what is known as "legal precedent" in law. A legal precedent is;
When someone breaks a law for the first time and a court sentences them, the court will use this first case in similar cases that arise in the future. This ensures consistency and complete fairness under the law. Persons who commit the same crime will be judged the same way, and sentenced the same way.
When Adam sinned, he was judged "a sinner". This is a legal term.
Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
We call everyone a sinner, but in the Bible, "a sinner" was a specific legal term like the term "felon" that designates a person committing a more serious crime. Someone committing a minor crime is called a "misdemeanant".
Those who knowingly sinned like Adam sinned are judged "a sinner"
Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
Note that the scripture itself calls this woman who was a known prostitute "a sinner".
So, this is what is meant by Adam "making" men sinners. Those who sinned as he did were made or judged "sinners".
Likewise, those who believe God as Jesus believed his Father are made or judged "righteous".
And this is what the scriptures call a saved man, "a righteous" man. This is a legal term, just like "a sinner" is a legal term.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
You will never understand the book of Romans until you realize Paul was speaking as a lawyer using legal terms in this book.
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
That is true is does, but that does not automatically add up to original sin either.
He won't stop, he does this intentionally. He never provides one word of scripture to support the Reformed view. He is just a "cheerleader" for them. He knows what he is doing, he does this on purpose.
He also continuously implies false views to his opponents and puts words in their mouths they never said, a very sinful and dishonest tactic. But the moderators allow him to do it over and over again.
He will not stop.
Adam was the first to sin, he was the "precedent". Likewise Jesus was the first to trust God to raise him up from the dead, he was the "precedent".
Those who sin like Adam are judged or made "sinners" as he was. Those who trust Jesus are judged or made "righteous" as he was.
And you are telling me this why?
Sorry James, gotta disagree here. In Romans 5 Paul is speaking of "spiritual death" not physical. Look at all the terms used;
Imputed, transgression, offense, judgment, condemnation, justification, grace, free gift, disobedience, obedience, transgression, righteousness, etc... These are all legal terms pertaining to spiritual death, not physical.
Now go to 1 Corithians 15 and you will see terms applying to the resurrection of our bodies.
Raised, body, sowest, grain, flesh, etc... These are all terms referring to our physical bodies and physical death.
What Paul is showing in Romans 5 is that Jesus is a type of Adam. Adam was our precedent, he was the first to sin. When we sin as he sinned, we are judged "a sinner" like he was, and sentenced to spiritual death as he was.
Likewise, Jesus was the first or precedent for us. He was the first to trust God to raise him from the dead. Likewise, when we trust Jesus to raise us from the dead we are judged or made "righteous" as he was, and given the gift of eternal life as he was.
I wasn't simply addressing you, but everyone reading. I was adding to your comment.
You are correct, Romans 5 IS NOT teaching Original Sin.
This is easily proved by verse 14;
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
It is impossible that Romans 5 is teaching Original Sin for two reasons;
#1 Paul was only speaking of men from Adam to Moses. If he was teaching Original Sin he would have spoken of ALL men.
#2 Paul clearly says these men from Adam to Moses HAD NOT sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin. They did not seminally eat the forbidden fruit being in Adam's loins in the garden as Augustine falsely taught.
So, Romans 5:14 utterly refutes that Paul was teaching Original Sin.
We are guilty because of our own sin. We do not carry the guilt of Adam.
You're correct that Universalists appeal to Romans 5 as their "proof", and you have to look at it the same on both sides, Adam and Christ.
But there is a third option besides the two you offered. This passage is not speaking if anyone being condemned to hell, nor saved from hell. Paul was speaking of everyone dying physically on account of Adam, and being resurrected on account of Christ.
Look earlier in the chapter....HAVING BEEN justified by faith, we have peace with God. HAVING BEEN reconciled by His DEATH, we shall be saved by His LIFE.
What death, what life? His death on the cross, which reconciled us to God, and His resurrection, which saved us from bodily death. He's the first fruits of resurrection. Paul asked in 7:25 "who will SAVE me from this BODY of death?" Christ.
The reason 5:18-19 has a universal ring to it, is because it IS universal. John 5:28-29 says all men will be raised.
But even though the resurrection is universal, Paul is concerned with believers as he continues on.
I have spent MANY hours reading, studying, and praying about Romans 5 James, and I am convinced Paul is speaking of spiritual death only here. He does not use terms that apply to our body like he repeatedly does in 1 Corinthians 15. That chapter is absolutely speaking of our physical resurrection.
Many men have come close to interpreting Romans 5 correctly. It IS showing that Adam and Jesus are representatives for mankind. But it is not saying that Adam's sin turned us all into sinners that must sin. Likewise, it is not saying that Jesus's obedience made us all "righteous" so that we all go to heaven.
It is showing that Adam and Jesus were "the first", they were the "precedent" for those men who came after.
Those men who sinned as Adam sinned were judged or "made" sinners as Adam was, and sentenced to death as he was.
Likewise, those who believe on Jesus are judged or "made" righteous, as he was judged righteous for his perfect faith and obedience.
The problem with Romans 5 is that people have been taught an erroneous interpretation that almost seems to work, although you must trim a few corners here and there to make it fit. Folks try to teach that Paul was teaching Original Sin, when that is clearly refuted by verse 14. Paul was proving that sin was in the world from Adam to Moses, even though there was no written law. How does he prove this? He proves this by spiritual death, men from Adam to Moses died, so there must have been a law, for sin is not imputed without law.
What law was there? There was the law written on the heart Paul had explained in Romans 2. This is why men from Adam to Moses spiritually died. Men after Moses were easy to explain, they spiritually died because they violated Moses's law.
So, Paul is not teaching Original Sin at all here. If he were teaching Original Sin, Moses' law would not even enter the discussion, all men would die because of Adam.
In the first 3 chapters of Romans Paul repeatedly teaches that all men are sinners, and never mentions Adam at all. Not once.
But Adam was a representative, he was our precedent, and we are all judged sinners and sentenced to spiritual death as he was for his sin.
Adam was the head before God for all humanity to come after him, and so when he fell and sinned, God judged all after him to be in the same spiritual condition/state, for he represented all of us before God, so all now found in Adam, and spiritually dead...
In like/same fashiom. second Adam stood before God and passed his exam, and so ALL now found in Him hav Eternal/Spiritual life...
Really, if you cut out the concept of the fall and original sin, you have just undermined paulinr theology, and are calling him and God a liar!
We have been imputed.reckoned by God with the same judgement as Adam had though, just as all of us now in Christ have been imputed/reckoned to have His rightiousness!
Gill on Romans 5:19:
"that as by Adam's sin all his posterity are made sinners, and so are brought under a sentence of condemnation; in like manner by the obedience of Christ, all his seed are made righteous and come under a sentence of justification of life: the persons made sinners are said to be "many", in opposition to the "one man", by whose disobedience they became so, and because there is an exception of one, even Jesus Christ; and mean all the natural descendants of Adam, who are many, and are so called, to answer to the subjects of justification in the next clause: what they are made sinners by, is "the disobedience of one man, Adam"; and by the first and single disobedience of his, in eating the fruit of the forbidden tree, by which they "were made sinners": the meaning of which is not, that they became sufferers for it, or subject to death on the account of it; the word used will not bear such a sense, but signifies men guilty of sin, and sometimes the worst and chief of sinners; besides, the apostle had expressed that before; add to this, that the sons of Adam could not be sufferers for his sin, or subject to death on account of it, if they were not made sinners by it, or involved in the guilt or it"