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Is murder a sin, punishable by Civil government?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, Jul 15, 2007.

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  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Question, is civil government is to be secular, to be godless and not favor one particular god, then why is murder wrong?
    Why can't I come by your house and steal your stuff tonight?
    According to some mormons that my grandpa grew up with, you don't have to pay a "gentile" (that is us to them) for goods or services.
    Do they have that freedom?
    IS that protected "freedom of religion"?


    What you can't have is freedom to sin and commit crimes and freedom to live Godly lives.
    The two will not work together.
     
    #1 Dale-c, Jul 15, 2007
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You would get a lot of support over in Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia, etc. In U. S. A. death and death.
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
  3. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Being a secular government does not mean that there are no rules or no laws. Murder is wrong in this country because we perceive it to be an immoral act. It's immoral to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, and even to those professing no religion.

    Because I'll get mad and have to hurt you. :laugh:

    They have every right to believe that and to teach their own to believe that.

    No, they can't practice that religious belief outside their own congregation.

    Just like American-Muslims can't expect all American women to wear burkas and American-Jews can't expect all men to wear caps on their head.

    You can believe and practice what you choose, but you cannot force others to enter in your practice with you if they are not of the same mind. Mormons cannot force those who are not Mormons to practice their beliefs.


    They do not work together, but they definitely exist together.
     
    #3 Scarlett O., Jul 15, 2007
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Well, the Sovereign God is over all government and they are his servants (Dan. 2; Rom.13). In fact, the pagan leader Cyrus was called God's servant (Isa.45).

    They are appointed by God to punish evildoers and to reward welldoers (1 Pet.2).
     
    #4 TCGreek, Jul 15, 2007
  5. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    Number one, because the laws of every state make it a crime to murder. This is not limited to any religion.

    You can try, but again, the laws of my state make that a criminal offense, punishable by the civil government. If you are in my house, you also may be looking down the business end of my .357 Magnum.

    They sure do. You DO have freedom to sin and commit crimes. You also have freedom to live a Godly life. It's your choice. Although if you commit crimes, expect to have the civil government mete out a punishment.
     
    #5 Magnetic Poles, Jul 15, 2007
  6. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Not sure our "Civil government(s)" would 'classify' murder as a "sin" per se, but they can and do punish it, especially for those who cannot afford (or obtain in other ways) first-class, top-flight, high-priced, legal talent! :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
    #6 EdSutton, Jul 15, 2007
  7. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    That may be the God intended purpose, but it is kind of hard to uphold that standard when leaders of any given government (mentioning no names) has no sense of right or wrong, truth or deceit.
     
    #7 saturneptune, Jul 15, 2007
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    For sure, ask OJ.
     
    #8 saturneptune, Jul 15, 2007
  9. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    Baloney. Tell that to Paul, Daniel, Peter, Joseph, etc......:BangHead:

    To answer the OP:
    Yes, murder is punishable by the civil or secular authorities and are in place by direct decree of God. Romans 13.
     
    #9 av1611jim, Jul 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2007
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I read a good book on this subject some years ago. It was by Kai Nielson and was titled, "Ethics without God". He argues that beyond God man still has a deep moral abiding since of right and wrong. What's scary is a person who see's nothing wrong or feels no regret with doing his fellowman wrong. Now that's one scary individual.
     
    #10 LeBuick, Jul 16, 2007
  11. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    NO, No, No No NO!
    It is Wrong because God SAYS IT IS WRONG!
    That is idolatry Scarlett, you are setting up man above God!

    Wait a miinute, what about the double speak?
    Why CAN'T I come and steal your stuff?
    What right do you habve to force your belief that stealing is wrong on me?
    What if their religious belief requires them to practice it outside their congregation?
    What then?
     
    #11 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
  12. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    This really comes back to God's sovereignty just as it does in salvation.
    Man wants a free will to choose his own laws, just like he "chooses his own salvation"
     
    #12 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
  13. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    You are full of the baloney, to be quite frank, you conspiracy nut case. It is your type of mindset and misinterpretation of Scripture that allows abortion to run rampant today. There is a point where man's law conflicts with God's, a concept you would think someone with an advanced degree would understand.

    You have no idea what Paul, Daniel, Peter, or Joseph tried to do to change the government. In fact, if you went to Sunday School in elementary school, you would remember that Joseph was very effective at changing the government of Eygpt for the better. And as I recall, Daniel and his friends stood up for Godly principles in the face of a brutal government, again in elementary school.

    Your perspective is very narrow and shallow. It would be a great thing for you to reread some of these Biblical giants you just mentioned, and get some truth out of the story. It is more than a story. And yes, we did land on the moon. Probably if you had been President (God forbid) during WW2, you would have said, "The government of Germany was ordained by God, lets leave it alone."

    Thanks to thinking like yours is why we have the liberal government and leadership we do today. They have eyes but cannot see, hears and cannot hear.

    To get back to the op, yes, civil government should punish murder, and ours should be calling abortion murder, a sin for which this nation will pay dearly one day.
     
    #13 saturneptune, Jul 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 16, 2007
  14. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
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    Dear brother, please don't pop a blood vessel on my account. I would really feel bad if you did.

    You asked why murder was wrong in the eyes of our civil (secular) government. You didn't ask why it is wrong in light of the bible.

    I believe that murder is wrong because God said it is wrong. So do all Christians and all Jews for that matter. I don't know why Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, or atheists believe it to be wrong.

    But all in all, 99.99% of Americans believe it to be an immoral act for whatever reason.


    What right do I have to force my belief that stealing is wrong on you?

    I don't have that right to force any of my beliefs on you if I am in your house or on passing by you on the street. But, if you come into my home where I practice those beliefs, you are on my turf and can expect nothing less than for me to "practice" my belief system (my frying pan upside your head) on you.

    Our government has proclaimed that stealing is an offense. Therefore, what you and I believe about it is just our own personal beliefs. You do not have the right, by law, to come to my house and steal my property anyway. It's against the law.

    As I said earlier, those Mormons have the right to believe that they don't have to pay non-Mormons for goods and services and they have the right to teach it to their own children.

    But they do not have the right to force others to practice their religious beliefs.

    They have the right to walk into Walmart, fill up a cart-load of items, pass through the check-out line, and say, "I can't pay you for these items because it is against my personal religious beliefs as a Mormon".

    They can do all of those things. BUT what they cannot do is to force Walmart to engage in their religious beliefs with them and to force Walmart to give them the items for free.

    Walmart does not have to recognize those religious beliefs of the Mormon customers.

    In fact, Walmart can call the police and accuse them of attempting to steal.

     
    #14 Scarlett O., Jul 16, 2007
  15. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    No, the government is not to proclaim that it is wrong to steal, God says it is wrong to steal and that government is to punish those who do steal.
    As a Christian, I must not steal from your because God says it is wrong.
    As a christian law enforcement officer, they must "force" the will of the Bible on the offenders.
    it isn't forcing mans opinion on another, we have no right to do that. WE have the DUTY to force man to obey GOd's law when it comes to civil crimes.

    No, they don't have a "right" to do that.
    They do have the liberty though. Government is only to punish actions so if they believe something that is wrong, civil government does not punish their belief, that is between them and God.
    But they do not have a right, they have no right to protection to do such.

    Now that much is true.
    That is true.
    Again, there is no God given right, but they can say whatever they want and words are not the states jurisdiction.

    Very true.

    Depending on the actual actions, probably so.

    My point in all of this is that enforcing laws against murder or stealing IS forcing ones religion on someone else.
    And if you think religion does not play a role...what about abortion and euthanasia?
    They are both wrong no matter what is on the books.

    Do you believe that civil rulers are minsters of the One True and Living God?
     
    #15 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
  16. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I think we both misunderstood each other a little on that one. I am sorry if I over reacted :(
     
    #16 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
  17. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    The Government representing the collective body of people can and have decided these things to be wrong. Why is it so important to you to argue man can't be ethical without God? Certianly you believe a non-christian can be good and morally ethical, they just won't be saved. Tell me, was the good Samaritan saved?
     
    #17 LeBuick, Jul 16, 2007
  18. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    I believe Romans 1 describes the fact that man is created with a moral compass...

    Therefore even secular governments (which is every government on earth.. we will not have a theocracy until Jesus sets up his) base their laws on this instilled moral compass...
     
    #18 tinytim, Jul 16, 2007
  19. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Even secular, non CHristian government get their authority from God.
    It is true that nature itself makes it obvious that murder is wrong.

    BUt the point is that this is all true because of God's law.
     
    #19 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
  20. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    Sure, they can live reasonably "ethical" lives.
    Many have lived principled lives who were not Christians, they of course will not please God and will not be saved but they can and often do live law abiding lives as far as civil law goes.
     
    #20 Dale-c, Jul 16, 2007
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