Is Paul more loving than God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 27, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    This is a serious question regarding Romans 9.

    The chapter begins with one of the most heartfelt expressions of love from Paul for his fellow countrymen, Israel, who is being hardened in part due to their continued rebellion and God's plan to engraft the Gentiles into the church.

    Many argue that God hates those he has hardened as non-elect reprobates, but here Paul expresses his overwhelming love and even his willingness to be accursed for their sakes. Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, expresses a willingness to lay down his own life for these hardened Jews, yet are we to believe God doesn't share those feelings of love?

    In short, in this situation is Paul more loving and willing to sacrifice for others than the Christ He serves?
     
  2. Cypress

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    Be careful Skan....you may be accused of smuggling in a carnal sense of love and fairness here.
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    I love my daughter and if I had the power would make it so she could NEVER go to hell. God does not do this. Thus I love my daughter more than God does.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Do you really believe you love your daughter more than God does?

    Actually your argument presumes that God only loves those who end up in heaven, when the scripture indicates his love for all mankind and his desire for all to come to repentance. The fact that he doesn't necessarily effectually cause people to love and follow Him doesn't mean he doesn't love them, it only means he has given them the freedom to choose their own way.
     
  5. jbh28

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    God did send his son to die so that these Jews could be saved. We do need to be careful as this argument is also used by the universalist. (I'm not saying you are, just to be clear.) We could say that we wish everyone went to heaven. Are we more loving that God? God is more than just love. Paul didn't die on the cross, Jesus did.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    So, you are not one who affirms Calvinistic teaching of limited atonement? Or are you meaning the elect among the Jews?

    That's exactly what I'm asking. Paul (and many of us) express our desire for everyone to be saved (as does God in our view). Not that God wants to save them regardless of their will, but that God does desire them to repent and be saved, thus does express a genuine love for them.
     
  7. jbh28

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    Depends on what one means. If you mean that Christ died for the church and his death is sufficient for everyone but sufficient only for the elect. then yes.
    I would say God has A desire for all to repent, but that is not his ultimate desire.
     
  8. Skandelon

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    I understand.

    So, why would Paul, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, express more of a love and willingness to save the hardened Jews than would Jesus Himself?
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    No, just using your warped logic in the same way you are using it against Calvinism.
     
  10. jbh28

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    Did Paul die on the cross? No, then Paul didn't show more love than God.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    But according to you he didn't die for the reprobate, but only for the "church", so Paul is showing more love for them in that case, right?
     
  12. canadyjd

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    First, to answer your question directly. No, Paul is not more loving and not more willing to sacrifice than the Christ he serves.

    The problem with the question (at least, one the problems) is that you are comparing the love of a fallen man with the love of Almighty God.

    We are commanded to love one another just as Christ loved us. Therefore, Paul is fulfilling that command with his genuine love for his countrymen. A love so great, he would die for them if he could, just as Christ died for His church.

    But God has other considerations than simply love. He is the God of Righteousness and Justice. He is the God of love and the God of vengence. He is the God of longsuffering patience and of imminent wrath.

    Human beings are never commanded to make the judgement that will lead to the eternal damnation of a human being. God will make that judgement. Humans do not elect others to salvation, but God does elect. Humans don't harden whom they choose, but God does harden. Humans are not commanded to take vengence, but God will take vengence. Humans will not separate the sheep from the goats, but God does.

    So, your question does not take into account the various responsibilities of God with respect to His creation.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #12 canadyjd, Feb 27, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2011
  13. Aaron

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    No, he is not more loving, and he is not speaking of each individual. He does not grieve over Herod or Caiaphas or Judas or any member of the Sanhedrin or anyone that took an active role in the murder of Christ.

    He himself was murdering Christ when He persecuted the church. (The anti-universal church crowd must hate that confession.)

    He has Israel in general in view. And he does not say that he does wish, but that he could. In other words, his natural zeal for his countrymen is pushing him to the brink of an unsanctified position, based on his natural affection for them as kinsmen.

    Christ was sent to His own (according to the flesh), and His own received Him not. How could it be said that Paul could wish to do more than Christ?

    But Paul's expression here was a way to temper the judgment in the following verses. He wants it to be known that the judgment he expresses does not flow from any personal animosity. That judgment is that they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. He is not a Jew which is one outwardly.

    Circumcision is of the heart.

    God is a respecter of no man, and whether he be jew or gentile, God is known by the Spirit, not the flesh. Natural affection is an enemy of the Gospel. Men are prone to love wife or son or daughter more than God. If Paul actually did wish to be cut off for the sake of his countrymen according to the flesh, he would be wishing to forsake the true Israel of God and turn his back on the gifts and calling he was given. It would be an unthankful, and idolatrous wish, and certainly not one that meets, let alone exceeds, the love of God.
     
    #13 Aaron, Feb 27, 2011
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  14. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ha Ha Ha......Every time I read your posts I think of 1 Cor 2:14 " The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him..."

    Shakes head.
     
  15. Ron Wood

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    Yet another attempt to make the Scriptures say what they do not say in order to discredit the truth that is obviously obnoxious and hated. I certainly hope that this isn't the focus of your preaching as it seems to be on these boards. :rolleyes:
     
  16. jbh28

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    Actually, that's according to the Bible that Christ died for the church....but Paul did not die for anyone. So no, Paul didn't have more love for them.
     
  17. Skandelon

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    So, like when you say something nice to someone before you tell them what you don't like? "I love you enough to be cursed in your stead, but go to hell." Like that? Just kidding. I know what you mean...just disagree obviously.

    You know what is interesting regarding this statement... Relatively few asians are believers, statistically speaking, so could one rightly conclude that God may have some kind of bias against them? Just not sure how Calvinists handle that issue sense such things don't involve man's will, but only God's.


    So this was an empty platitude to soften the truth of their certain condemnation? Interesting. Just wondering how you all dealt with it. Thanks
     
  18. Skandelon

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    No, no, my sermons are typically about the perfection that is Ron Wood and how we should all strive to be more like him. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. Aaron

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    And you wonder why I don't take you seriously.

    Romans isn't written to unbelievers. He is telling the elect that what he has to say about Israel does not come from any personal animosity.


    Anyone at a third grade reading level could see that wasn't what was being said.

    Paul answers that question in Romans 9. You must have missed it.

    Well, we all can read for one thing.
     
  20. convicted1

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    Uh, Apostle Paul is not a "fallen man" at this point in his life. Granted, his flesh was still under the curse of sin and death, but his soul had been made alive unto God through Christ. At this point in his life, he had access to God through Jesus such as we do now. So, in a sense, he wasn't "fallen".

    Moses pleaded pretty much the same case to God in Exodus:

    Exo. 32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

    27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

    28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

    29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

    30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

    31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

    32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

    33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

    34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

    35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

    So, Moses himself pleaded with God to take him away for the people. Apostle Paul did pretty much the same. As a CHRISTian, we are to love all, even our enemies. But once we are saved, we are not a "fallen man", but a man alive unto God through Christ!! Praise His sweet name!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     

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