Is pedophilia permissable?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Apr 17, 2002.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it ok for a Christian minister to commit acts of pedophilia, his superior to cover it up, and then for the Pope to overlook the obvious glaring sin that is occuring within the Catholic Church? I am only asking because I heard on the news today that the Pope had rejected Laws resignation today and supported his cover up.

    http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/16/cardinal.law.statement/index.html

    Joseph Botwinick

    [ April 17, 2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]
     
  2. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,739
    Likes Received:
    4
    It is absolutely NOT okay and I have a feeling that the silence from even our more prolific Catholic posters will be deafening on this thread!
     
  3. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    Was in Australia recently. Their newspapers tend to give better worldwide coverage of many things than American papers. Pedophilia is a MAJOR problem, it seems, throughout the Roman Catholic church. If the Pope accepted/demanded the resignation of one, there would be an awful lot more to follow!

    That may be the actual problem.

    And then the revenues would be down...

    And, I'm afraid that historically, THAT is what the RC church is really all about.

    Flame away, Roman Catholics -- but the historical evidence is overwhelming regarding the Catholic church and mammon.
     
  4. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Aren't Catholic priests not allowed to marry or something? I wonder how much that has to do with the problem...
    Gina
     
  5. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Of course sex with "children" is not ok!!! But, please, let's not be judging all these accusations as facts. What is happening now is people absolutely crawling out of the woodwork and whinning about "abuse" that happened 30 years ago. Do you think the motivation might just be money!! Further, I noticed that in a lot of these cases the "victim" said he was abused 100 times over 10 years. Now, folks, that is not abuse. That's enjoying it. Let's see. The "victim" says ... Well, I was abused every Monday, Wednesday, and Fridaty. Man, that mean priest did all this horrible stuff to me 3 times a week. Oh, poor me. Of course I NEVER missed a session with the priest. I showed up right on time because I knew I was going to have to suffer through this horrible experience!!! Come on folks!! Let's have just a little bit of reason in this thing. You can be abused once. Not 3,000 times a year, for years, and years. I know it is politically incorrect to not get hysterical about wild charges of "abuse" that happened 20 or 30 years ago, but lets make sure these assertions are true before we condemn ALL priests etc.

    Did abuse occur? Of course it did. Some of it admitted. But this whole thing reminds me of someone throwing some red meat into the ocean to watch the sharks have a feeding frenzy.

    Of course all the pychobabblers tell people, actually I think, put it into their heads with very leading questions, that they don't remember that they were abused, and then after a "remembering" session with a pychobabbler they now, after 30 years,"remember." What a crock!!

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying abuse did not occur. I'm sure it did. I question EVERY SINGLE charge tho, that people say happened 20 or 30 years ago. It is beyond belief. I remember the first time I was "abused." I was l0, during the summer at a lake by a "older" man. I remember every single detail about it. I went on with life. I didn't have dreams, nightmares, have to run to a pychobabbler, it didn't ruin my relationships with anyone, it didn't keep me up nights pacing the floor, it didn't make me wake up screaming in the night, it didn't do anything except make me aware that there was such a thing as sex. And I know this is really going to make people hysterical -- but the truth is I ENJOYED IT!! It was like, man, this is really cool. Does that make me evil, or strange or wrong? No, it makes me truthful. I know the truth hurts to some people, but the fact is, it was fun!! So, there!!!! Condemn me all you want. I had to say it, because I have talked to alot of friends that had the same type of experiences, and they felt the same way. I'm saying all this for those out there that have let this stuff ruin your lives. Get over it!!!! Go on with life. Things could be worse. Believe me!! Don't look back. Stuff happens in life. I, for myself, would much rather have had someone molest me when I was 10, than have a disease, or be physically injured in an auto accident and can't walk, or something drastic like that. For my summer and being introducted to sex, well, it was not the horrible thing that other people seem to have experienced. Maybe society has just gotten way to hysterical about the whole thing. Sex with kids is a sin against God. I know this will cause alot of people to get hysterical, but I wanted to say there is another side to all this. I know, because I experienced it, and I remember it very well. For some reason I pretty much KNEW what was going to happen if I went to the lake during that summer, because the person was always there looking for me. But I KEPT going to the lake. You say a kid of 10 can't give his consent. I don't know, I could have gone to a movie, but I didn't.I WENT TO THE LAKE!!!
    James2

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,179
    Likes Received:
    325
    No, it is not OK. Not with anyone; Catholic or non-Catholic.

    Unless the hierarchy of the Church of Rome comes up with a well organized plan /strategy to root out and block this evil and makes it known to the public loud and clear and then exercises this plan, allowing Law to stay in office (IMO) is a colossal error in judgment. Which, by the way, may not be so bad a thing in the long haul for professing Christendom.

    But if he returns and makes good such a plan, then the RCC hierarchy will partially atone for their sins and Law's former sins may be forgotten by the public.

    In my opinion, of course.

    HankD
     
  7. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    In answer to your question: No.

    Now the next question should be, is this what is really happening?

    Acts of pedophilia... No doubt some priests are guilty of this sin. Is it everything that has been reported? I am not sure. Is every accusation true? I doubt it.

    Are Catholic priests the only ones guilty of this sin? No. I have read things to the effect that about 5% of the clergy are involved in such things and that same 5% is found for no-Catholic ministers.

    When I think of abuse as it relates to Baptist though it is in the form of physical punishment: beatings, whippings, locking in a closet, that sort of thing. I seem to recall a church that had all of their children taken away by Protective Services in the not too distant past.

    Cover up... That would depend upon whether you considered therapy and penance to be cover up. Most of the allogations date back years, to a period when we did not understand the pervasiveness of this particular sin. We then thought that such people could be cured. That they could overcome their sin.

    It isn't surprising that the Church believes in repentance and forgiveness, and the chance to live a better life.

    Perhaps those concepts (which I do believe are in the Bible) are merely words to those who wish to condemn without all of the facts and circumstances.

    BTW, it is interesting that "sin is sin" no longer applies when looking at others. Now it becomes "their sin is worse than mine".

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  8. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gina:
    You ask that maybe the cause of priests having sex with boys is because they aren't allowed to marry. I don't know, but the homosexual lobby seems to insist that a person is BORN a homosexual so I guess you can't have it both ways, can you?
    If you are BORN a homosexual, then whether you are married or not would have nothing to do with it. And if you are not born homosexual, but "learn" it, it wouldn't make any difference if you were married or not. And the vast majority of single men do not have sex with minors, so I guess that question of yours raises more questions than it answers.
    James2
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    17,527
    Likes Received:
    0
    T2U,

    I know that sexual abuse takes place in Baptist Churches. So what is the difference? The difference is the cover up. Whenever this type of abuse takes place and it is known, the minister is fired and turned into the authorities. Excuses are not made and there is no cover up.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,739
    Likes Received:
    4
    You are absolutely correct, Joe! The problem here is that the cries of infallibility are grossly in error and unless one is totally brainwashed by the teachings of the RCC, they will see it as such.

    In response to James 2, whether or not the victim enjoyed or not is NOT the issue. I know from other threads that you have several children at your home. Would YOU put up with someone molesting any of them just because the child "enjoyed it"?

    I'll tell you what, if it was one of MY kids, that pervert better PRAY the cops get to him first!!!
     
  11. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    No offense, Joe, but where do you get this?

    "...supported his cover up."

    Could you provide evidence first of such a cover up and second of such support?

    I read the article you linked to. No mention of any cover up there.

    One thing that I have learned at this forum, a certain brand of Baptists evidence no respect for truth, but rather seem to delight in smearing the reputations of others who do not believe as they do.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    That was some testimony James. I am glad God has given you the grace to overcome your past. But on the issue of consent, can a child of 10 give his consent? I have four children, ranging in age from 9 to 19. As long as my oldest remains under my roof he submits to my authority (parental authority). To this day, though he be 19, he is not permitted to go to a movie. He doesn't have my consent. My daughter, who is almost your age when you were molested, certainly does not have consent to either be molested or to have sex of any kind with anybody. Nor under the law is she able to give consent. She is a minor. If anyone would ever take her and take advantage of her in that way, he ought to receive the full force of the law. If his actions are repeated, such that he can be branded a repeat offender, he could be locked up for life, and declared a threat to society.
    The only consent a child should give is NO!
    They are easily influenced and persuaded by people in positions of authority that the "wrong" enacted upon them is not really wrong. Thus they "consent" to the act. That is not consent.
    DHK
     
  13. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Clint:
    Actually my kids are all gone now. Of course I would not want them to be molested but rather that than be assaulted and lose the ability to walk or some other horrible thing.

    In fact my son, years after the fact, told me that when he was 12 years old he had some encounters with a 19 year old girl. She lived in a small apartment where he had to walk by to get home from school. I asked him if that damaged him. He said heck no!!! I used to walk back in forth in front of her apartment hoping she would see me. Now, is this right or am I defending it? No, I'm not. My point is that I think there are way more important things to worry about, and I think SOME of this is just mass hysteria.

    By the way, he went on to get his PH.D and is a research scientists, is married and has two children. He said he never ONCE was distrubed by the whole thing.
    James2
     
  14. cor_unam

    cor_unam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    of course it's not okay, but the original post seems a bit misleading. The link given doesn't talk about the Pope rejecting any resignation... only that discussion occured and Law will continue his ministry. And it's highly doubtful that the Pope "supported his cover-up." We must not pretend to fully know the Church's intentions in this case because it has been largely undisclosed.

    The United States has only about 7% of the World's Catholics within it's borders. Almost all abuse cases seemed to have occured within this area. It's not an uncontrollable epidemic or anything. This problem is huge and inexcusable but let's not be too quick to tar and feather us.... look at it in perspective.

    -First off, notice how the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" is completely lost when accusing clergy... not to defend them but just notice how their rights seem removed with the attitude of "guilty until proven innocent"

    -Secondly, this happens everywhere, not just within Catholicism. I hate to say it but the concept of a "cover-up" isn't entirely new to protestant faiths either.... this is a sin that knows no denominations.

    -Third, the idea that priests are shackled behind suppresive chains of celibacy is silly. That did not cause or lead to these sins. We forget that a priest CHOOSES to take the vow of celibacy. If he wanted to lead the life of a married man and still serve as a minister of God, he could've chosen to be a deacon or something. Celibacy is a gift that only a few are able to handle... it is not the root of the evil.

    -And finally, are people examining the correlations between sex abuse in the clergy vs. sex abuse in regular jobs??? It's probably about the same guys. It's very very sad and sick that these individual's chose to betray their profession and to betray the trust of their parishes... may God have mercy on their souls. But please don't use this alone to discredit the entire Catholic faith. No one said the Church was perfect... no one said the individual's within and leading our Church are perfect...
    Please be reasonable before you cast your stones.

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: cor_unam ]
     
  15. cor_unam

    cor_unam
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    Clint:
    The "cries of infallibility" really have nothing to do with this. The fact that the POPE in union with the MAGESTERIUM can not make an erroneous statement regarding FAITH and MORALS when SPEAKING FROM THE CHAIR OF PETER with the intent to INSTRUCT THE PEOPLE is completely irrelevant here.
    Priests are not infallible... no one, not even the pope is perfect... infallibility applies only as I laid it out above.

    In Christ.

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: cor_unam ]
     
  16. Gina B

    Gina B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2000
    Messages:
    16,944
    Likes Received:
    1
    Posted by James2: Further, I noticed that in a lot of these cases the "victim" said he was abused 100 times over 10 years. Now, folks, that is not abuse. That's enjoying it. Let's see. The "victim" says ... Well, I was abused every Monday, Wednesday, and Fridaty. Man, that mean priest did all this horrible stuff to me 3 times a week. Oh, poor me. Of course I NEVER missed a session with the priest. I showed up right on time because I knew I was going to have to suffer through this horrible experience!!! Come on folks!! Let's have just a little bit of reason in this thing. You can be abused once. Not 3,000 times a year, for years, and years.

    Gina: [​IMG] Let me try to keep my temper here, because what you said really ticks me off.
    Different people react to abuse in different manners. A person could HATE the abuse, be totally disgusted, etc., and continue going back or not telling.
    Why? A number of reasons. Fear and shame will stop you from telling, people might not believe you, or you may have been raised with it and not KNOW what to do. In cases like this, abuse becomes WHAT YOU KNOW, it's familiar, and often, once you decide that it's too big and scary to fight, you just give up and don't argue...an abuser holds major mental power over his victims. Often, a person can't handle life WITHOUT being abused, because it's the only way they know, and out of guilt and frustration they will continue to let it happen even when they're old enough to make it stop or have a reason, because by then usually you feel like you must have done something to deserve it, or you develop a "hero" mentality, that if you let them continue abusing you, it will prevent them from abusing someone else. I could go on and on and on, but would anyone listen?
    Gina
     
  17. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK:
    I understand your position fully and I do agree with you. A 10 year old can't give "consent" according to the law. I was just saying that I KNEW what was going to happen, and no one else did. I could have gone to a movie, or ridden my bike, or stayed home. Back then, in a small community, parents didn't worry about such things. I enjoyed going to the lake so I did.

    I'm not approving of it, I just wanted others that had that type of experience to not let it dominate the rest of their lives. Go on. Keep on keeping on. WORSE things can happen.
    By the way, this is the first time I have ever mentioned this to anyone other than my grown childen. I discussed it with my son (after he mentioned it when he was telling me about his experiences). I never thought it was worth mentioning or very important. Like I said, things happen, and you go on.

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  18. trying2understand

    trying2understand
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    3,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Clint and Joe,

    "Whenever this type of abuse takes place and it is known..."

    Good choice of words. You don't know when it has been covered up. You only know about the occurrences that you know about, not the ones that were covered up.

    In our little town, a local nondenominational church had a pastor who installed video recorders in the ladies rooms at the church and his bathrooms at home. He recorded women whithout their knowledge for years. It was known by his wife and the church deacons for years before a woman who was recorded found out and objected.

    The pastor merely relocated and now pastors another church in Florida (if my memory is correct). The woman wanted to go to the police but by the time she got worked up enough to do it, he was already gone.

    If you would like a whole bunch of links to stories about Baptist pastors who sexually/physically/emotionally abuse children/women or steal from the church or whatever, I could very easily provide them for you.

    As has been pointed out by others, these problems are not only within the Catholic Church. And an honest assessment of the facts related to these charges do not add up to a cover up.

    [ April 17, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]
     
  19. JAMES2

    JAMES2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gina:
    I knew that me stating my experiences would "tick" people off. But before you get hysterical read what I said. I was talking ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES AND HOW I REACTED TO IT. I know other people react differently.

    But please, don't let all the pcyhobabblers influence your thinking. I will not agree about "fear" and "power" over someone is what keeps someone going back for more. After all, most of us have a brain and KNOW what is right or wrong. To keep going back time and time again, to me, is WITHOUT excuse!! Period!! THAT'S MY OPINION OF ALL THIS.

    Especially this day and age. I don't buy it. You disagree with me. Fine. Disagree all you want. I am telling the TRUTH of what happened to me and how I handled it. If you think people should react by letting it ruin their lives, so be it. I think it is much better to thank God that nothing worse has happened, like I have stated. Go on with life. Keep on keeping on!! It does NO GOOD whatsoever, as they say, to cry over spilt milk.

    And, Gina, I'm not saying other people don't react in a more negative way. I'm just saying to keep reinforcing them by encouraging them to feel "angry" or encourage them to feel like a "victim" etc. is NOT HELPING ANYONE! Maybe they are all those things. I'm saying it is much better to tell them to focus on Jesus Christ, and love, and peace, and kindness, and forgiveness, and GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES. If I'm wrong for this, so be it!!

    Since I'm on this subject, I also think that people going to "therapy" for years and years "to get over their "victimhood and anger" and pay thousands of dollars to a psychologist is to cause the victim to become a victim again. To spend money with these modern day versions of witch doctors is one of the more blatant frauds of the 20th century. Psychology IS a fraud! The ideas that this fraud was founded on are so anit-christian, so worldly, so unscientific, so full of absolute nonsense, the profession should be banned from inflicting themselves on the public.

    Along these lines I would suggest the book by David Hunt, on "The Seduction of Christianity." A very informative book, to say the least!!!!!
    God Bless
    James2

    [ April 17, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]
     
  20. DocCas

    DocCas
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    4,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    I suspect James has hit on a factor that is given all too little consideration in such cases. First, I think it is important to separate pedophilia with preteens from pedophilia with teens. One of the problems when dealing with those who as teens had sexual encounters with adults is the fact that orgasm is enjoyable. A boy in his early teens will likely be intrigued by this new and highly enjoyable experience. And that will lead to guilt, later in life, when he comes to understand that such practices are not only illegal, but sinful. He enjoyed it, but it was wrong. That produces a deep seated conflict which he must resolve. If he cannot, as James did, realize it was wrong, get over it, and get on with his life, he is very likely to become an emotional basket case, not so much due to the abuse, but his enjoyment of it.

    It is not the abuse as much as the conflict it causes that feeds his later problems. These people will often become fanatics about the subject. Neither extreme, in my opinion, is completely healthy, but, if I were forced to choose I would choose James' position. All too often, today, we find people becoming "professional victums." Bad things happen. Get over it and get on with life.

    The RCC, any every other organization, needs to discipline these pedophiles, immediately, forcefully, and publicly. But once that is done, it is time to move on.
     

Share This Page

Loading...