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Featured Is Pelagius Teaching On The Rise?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I didnt say that. Do you seriously believe that Edwards, Ferguson, Sproul, Boice, Ryken, Moeller, Kuyper, Spurgeon, Warfield etc would do that...LOL What do you think we are, Roman Catholics?
     
    #81 Earth Wind and Fire, Feb 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 28, 2013
  2. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say that, you did, but while we are at it. Calvinism was originally a Catholic doctrine. Being reformed also means Catholic. At any rate definitly not the doctrine of the early Church.
    MB
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK...since you made that claim.... Show me where the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace were Catholic Doctrine!

    Be specific....particularly where Election, Reprobation & Atonement is concerned.

    You can even have your little friends like Windman help you.

    Take your time with it..... but prove your point.
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What you call calvinism was actually writen by Augustine.
    MB
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yea. I said doctrines of grace. Did he write those? How bout Calvin...did he write those? I will give you an easy one....show me who's doctrine is closer to Roman Catholics, your consept of Atonement or the Calvinists?
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Relax Catholics are no longer Augustinians they are universalist now. Which is why Luther and Calvin protested the RCC. The Atonement is limited to only those who believe and place their trust in Jesus Christ. That is not a particular few but the whosoever will believe.
    MB
     
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I believe they borrow from both the C's and A's. They hold to a universal atonement to one degree, but believe it is only applied to catholics via the church. That's much more close to the Calvinist understanding.

    The other petals...

    Total Depravity: Very similar to Calvinists. See Augustinian original sin.

    Unconditional Election: Pretty much in agreement, though catholics do not believe in double predestination while some Cal's do.

    Irresistible Grace: Eerily similar to the RCC 'efficacious grace'

    Perseverance of the Saints: The very phrase was taken from Augustine. Enough said.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I will tend to agree with you on Total Depravity (from original sin) & that is Augustinian

    However I cannot see atonement which is pivotal.

    Calvinists do not believe in Universal Atonement. We believe in Particular Redemption--2 different things. And that sets the stage for everything. Let me ask you....what did God the Father actually intend to do in sending his son to die for us?

    Catholics will say that Christs death was not an actual atonement but only makes atonement possible. Then you have to walk thru the 7 sacraments.

    Calvinists will say His death was an actual atonement for the sins of those elect persons whom the Father previously had determined to give to Jesus to save

    And you will have to explain to me how some Catholics are chosen to election & others are not & thus they will be passed on as Reprobates. If they have doctrines like that then thats news to me since I was a Catholic for 32 years & never heard of it .
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Christ died as the payment for offenses against God that were universal in scope (the curse).

    They believe all cstholics will be eventually saved and none reprobate unless they leave the chirch, and even then there is purgatory.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I will ask our resident RC THINKING STUFF to clarify.
     
  12. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    RC theology is very diverse. While Augustine was and is highly influential, Aquinas is just as much and maybe even more so.
     
  13. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation Well-Known Member
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    Study the life and teachings of the Catholic monk Gottschalk. He antedates the "reformers" and he even taught Limited Atonement. Not that it really matters to me what they mean with it being a "Catholic" doctrine, so what? Invariably, no one teaches the doctrine of say, the Trinity better or more succinctly than does the RCC too.

    There are some things that the RCC is correct about, so what does it matter if it is a "Catholic" doctrine anyway.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Because I've seen to many 'cafeteria catholics' in my life proclaim that they are practitioners of Roman Catholicism but sin like pigs then go back to their church, get absolved & keep on sinning. That 'acting out'agenda kept me a sinner for 54 years. I believe the RCC is a primary enabler for carnality.
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I have heard back from Thinking Stuff who confirmed that Catholic Church considers Pelagius teaching heretical. Im sure thats not news to anyone. I am asking him to detail the catholic Doctrines of Election & atonement.
     
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    I'm guessing an iPhone along with fat fingers....
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Yep :) :thumbs:
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Name Calling and Deception

    This is a typical Calvinist post. One, it brands, guilt by association, those who disagree with Calvinism as heretics. Two it misrepresents the issue. Is the will bound by sin? What verses support that fiction. Is the will neutral? What verses support that fiction.

    On the other side we have scripture such as Matthew 23:13 which teaches unregenerate natural men of flesh can understand spiritual things, the milk of the gospel, well enough to be entering heaven. Thus they were seeking God. So even in a fallen, corrupted, disposed to sin, state, they could still seek God and understand some spiritual things.

    So rather than discuss scripture, name calling deception is offered.

    Calvinism is a mistaken doctrine, unbiblical and based on reading into the text the man-made inventions of the dark ages.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    I do want to examine the claims about RC's & DoG believers being similar.

    Well, not as far as the doctrine of justification is concerned.

    For RC's, justification supports a subjective process begun by faith completed by works.

    For DoG Believers ... our justification is a subjective declaration that the believer is righteous through faith in Christ alone, apart from works.

    And as for atonement...I stand on my earlier commentary. They prefer to view the crucifixion as a demonstration of love rather than as the satisfaction of a debt. This is part of the overall aversion to understanding salvation in legal categories, with a general preference for relational categories instead. But of course scripture teaches both. the atonement accomplishes both redemption and reconciliation.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    jesus died for the sin debt of sinners , as a penal substition before God the father, as ths sin debt of all those who were to benefit from His death were paid for by His death!

    RCC denies that aspect, for they hold that real grace is merited out from god to us thru theSacraments, so its your good works efforts and the grace from the Sacraments that combine to make you a bteer person, and eventually either in this life, or at death, or after purgatory , the sinner will ahve cooperative well enough for God to be right to see them "right enough" to merit getting saved!
    Rome reverses the process, having sinners become sauntified enough to inder to have God justify them!
     
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