Is Physical Death A Form Of God's Chastisement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jne1611, Aug 13, 2007.

  1. jne1611

    jne1611
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    Right off I guess I better make clear that I am not alluding to the ME controversy at ALL. I will not be side tracked onto that issue here.

    The reason for this post is, that, for some time I have wanted to see those who really study the Bible give their input on this one subject. These issues branch off into other topics so fast that most of the time a answer is never given. So, I would like to start by giving a Scripture that indicates to me that God does chastise by death when that is His Will.

    1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    You that know the context of this Scripture know that Paul is rebuking the Church at Corinth for partaking of the Lord's communion as though it were a common dinner or get together. Some even being drunk etc.

    The latter part of the Scripture cited has been used much when talking about chastisement on the BB.

    But, if we keep the context of that Scripture, One of the ways that God according to the Apostle Paul chastises and keeps believers from being classed with the world is physical death.


    Notice verse 30. Three things are listed in context of God's Judgment on this Church for their behaviour. Here is the text,
    1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

    1st in the list of Judgments listed is weakness. This word can mean, "Infirm, sick, sickly, diseased", 2nd in the list is those who were sickly. This word can mean, "Infirm, sick, invalid", basically the same thing. These two Judgments were bodily. 3rd are those that "Sleep" this word means to die.

    So, in my opinion, if we keep the context, these Christians are exhorted to judge them selves to avoid being Judged of God. But if they did not, then they would be Judged to prevent them being condemned with the world.

    In other words, it sets Christians apart from unbelievers. We are not our own. And according to Hebrews 12, if there is no chastisement, then those who live with out it are not the children of God.

    So the question I have is, how do you guys and girls feel about this? Do you have Scripture that would indicate that this is not a fair interpretation of these verses? If so, I am open. Also contributing verses of support are wanted as well. Thanks!

     
  2. Mr.M

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    Be confident in the truth is my recommendation. You appear to have sufficient mastery of this area of Bible doctrine. These are very clear passages and you have dealt with them honesty, hence you understand them rightly and will benefit from that.

    It is when people start with an agenda or subscribe to some system of theology that causes the elementary to be their hangman. Instead of seeing what is plain and clear in elementary texts they are forced, due to a form of arrogance, to deny what they know they see in order to manipulate the passage or verse in their mind so that its convolution fits the demands of the theological grid they have determined must be right.

    Their mistake of course is that their ego is involved in searching for the truth that only results in skewed conclusions, a frantic search for what they determine is the most intellectually superior system or a system that is steeped in self-righteousness, all of which of course appeals to the ego. So after investing not just interest and study but their ego in the equation, when confronted with the realization that they are in error, they are unable to accept. Hence you get personalities unable to handle even elementary passages.

    I realize that you didn't solicit this angle in a response but I thought I would encourage you while telling you, yes, you are right on and understand clearly what the Scriptures are saying and teaching on this occasion.
     
  3. jne1611

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    Thanks for the encouragement, and your words have not fell on deaf ears. Thanks again!
     
  4. Amy.G

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    Would the sin unto death spoken of in 1 John be included in the physical death to avoid condemnation with the world that you referenced in 1 Cor.?
     
  5. jne1611

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    I personally believe it is. I have never taken the sin unto death to be hell, but physical death as means of chastisement for the sin.

    See, the word "sin" there is singular, and John said, "all unrighteousness is sin", so it has to be God who decided that the person would die because of the sin. And since "all unrighteousness is sin" then it could be a number of different things. Most likely different depending on the individual.
     
  6. Mr.M

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    Yes it is. The passage is very clear. Believers can and do sin a sin NOT unto death and unto death. John is talking to and about believers and in no way deviates from that in this verse.
     
    #6 Mr.M, Aug 13, 2007
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  7. Amy.G

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    I have read commentaries that say that the sin unto death is a judgement against the individual in order that they may not bring shame to the name of Christ. But, there are so many in this world shaming the name of our Lord even as we speak, yet they continue in their sin without the punishment of death, I don't think this is correct interpretation. What do you think?
    It seems more likely that it is an act of mercy for the sinner?
     
  8. DHK

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    Yes, the sin unto death is the final step in God's process of chastisement on this earth, if he so chooses to discipline in that way. Just as stoning was not a common method of disciplining a child in the OT, so death is not a common method of discipline by our Lord. But it is an option that he has for one that is particularly wayward. It serves two purposes:
    1. It prevents a wayward believer from dragging the name of Jesus through the mud, and thus continue to bring shame to his name., and
    2. In mercy He brings his child home thus saving him frome even more loss of reward at the JSOC, that he would otherwise incur would he be permitted to live.

    We don't know what this sin is. Only God knows. With Ananias and Sapphira it was the sin of hypocrisy. With the Corinthian believers it was the abuise of the Lord's Table.
     
  9. jne1611

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    I think that can be a reason, but, I am not for sure on that one. I'll have to look a little closer. I think the reason can be different, depending on God alone. So a direct answer may be impossible here.
     
  10. jne1611

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    Right. I see the Scriptural teaching very much in the same light on this subject. Sort of a double answer to Amy's question.
     
  11. Mr.M

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    The passage does not deal with God's motives so for someone to say, "It is because they are bringing shame to the name of the Lord" is them imposing on the passage what is not there.

    Your observation makes this clear. There are plenty of believers bringing shame.

    The history of the chastisement or discipline of God with believers is covered extensively in the OT and His dealing with Israel. They faced 5 major cycles of discipline, the last resulting of course in their being cut off, their death.

    During all these cycles shame was brought. But God isn't worried about you shaming His name, that isn't possible for a Divine Motive.

    What we can see however, as is exampled by Israel, discipline comes as a result of repeated neck-stiffening and refusal to head warnings. Why does God do this? Because the Scriptures clearly teach he loves us and scourges those he loves. Meaning he isn't careless but allows or produces suffering for our benefit. It is always for OUR benefit, NOT His, hence his name being sullied is not a motive and again, is not compatible with Divine Attributes.

    Why death in the end? The Bible isn't explicit but we do know that the Scriptures indicate that death comes when it is clear you will no longer respond to even the most severe form of suffering and warning while alive (again I refer to the cycles of the discipline for the Jews and their eventual demise as a nation). Your life on earth then is concluded by God.
     
    #11 Mr.M, Aug 13, 2007
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  12. Mr.M

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    It is time to sleep. Good night.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    That's pretty much the way I see it, but it's a difficult scripture and I want to examine all the possiblities and viewpoints. I sure don't claim to know for sure.

    This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it jne. :)
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    If this is chastisement, does it do away with the sin unto death?
     
  15. jne1611

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    I see your point as well. Although I do feel that our outward show before men is for Christ's namesake and since we are his ambassadors, chastisement comes to correct us. I to believe that we cannot define for sure per individual the "why" when it comes to God's Judgment. It is best we leave that to God.
     
  16. jne1611

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    What do you mean Bro. Bob? If I don't reply, I have gone to bed. Lord Willing I will get back with you on your question tomorrow. Good Night.
     
    #16 jne1611, Aug 13, 2007
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  17. jne1611

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    Thank you for coming to support it with honest questions and thoughts.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    Well, it has to be a really bad sin, does this chastisement of death pay for that sin?
     
  19. jne1611

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    Actually, I would not say it has to be a sin that we would consider really bad, since John put that all unrighteousness is sin, and then put the "sin" as singular, indicating that God could Judge a believer for any sin in this way, if He saw fit. I think that is the Big warning here.
    I would say it puts a stop to it. I believe that to be one of it's purposes.
    For instance, in the text I cited in the OP, death was given for disrespecting the Lord's communion. That would not hit my high list if I had one of Big sins as apposed to others. But God killed some of them for it.
     
    #19 jne1611, Aug 13, 2007
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  20. Brother Bob

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    Ok, lets just say they are little sins, any sin you want to call it. Does this chastisement cleanse it.
     

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