Is Prayer Necessary for Salvation?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Kathryn, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. Kathryn

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    What do those who believe in Faith Alone believe about the necessity or non necessity of prayer to God?
     
  2. gb93433

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    Belief. In the Greek text believe is always a verb.

    Sometimes read in James about the issue of a real genuine saving faith and a person's faith stated in a creed. One is written in the hearts of men and the other on a piece of paper.
     
  3. Kathryn

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    Are you saying that saving faith includes Christian works such as prayer? Are you saying prayer is necessary for Salvation?

    [ March 21, 2004, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  4. Yelsew2

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    Excuse me, but when did communication become a work? When you have conversation between yourself and your best friend, is that work? Is it a work to speak to your earthly father? Is it work to speak to your pastor? Is it work to speak to your biship?

    Biblical Prayer is conversation between man and His God! I don't see how that could possibly be a work.
     
  5. gb93433

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    Yes and no. Only belief in Jesus is necesary for salvation. However, that belief will manifest itself with works in accordance with what scripture teaches. Prayer may be included as a good work. But the one quality that must abound is love. By this all men will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another.

    To be a believer one must receive the good news of Jesus Christ. (Jn 1:12)

    In 1 Cor 15 it talks about the belief that is central to Christianity and Christ. Without the resurrection there would be no risen Christ and no Christianity.
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    God Bless you Kathryn. [​IMG]
     
  7. Yelsew2

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    Pray and Salvation. How else does one communicate acceptance of what has been offered? Salvation is the Gift of God and it is correct to both "ask for" the gift and to give thanks for the gift, both of which are a form of prayer.
     
  8. Helen

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    It's never 'faith alone,' Kathryn. It is GRACE alone, through faith. Faith is simply the road God uses to apply His Grace in the case of salvation and miracles (although He is certainly not obligated where the miracles are concerned!). There is nothing a man can do to earn or "help along" God's grace. The gift belongs to the Giver.

    Asking for the gift is not a work. It does not add to the gift or even facilitate it. Asking, in this case, is actually a giving up of works altogether, in submission and pleading for help regarding one's sinful nature and the power sin has in one's life.

    It is not a work to give up working! Roman Catholics do think they must work and keep working for salvation and the keeping of it. Give it up. You can't help God. He does just fine on His own. His grace is sufficient.
     
  9. gb93433

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    Romans 4:1-8, "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, And whose sins have been covered. "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

    In Ephesians 2:8,9 it says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    In Ephesians 2:8,9 grace is God's part and faith is our part. We respond to his grace by faith. The Scripture says that if we have the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains. A mustard seed is a very small seed and yet cangrow up to about 12 feet in height. When He gives a command He also enables us. His commands are His enablements
     
  10. Kathryn

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    Helen:
    [It's never 'faith alone,' Kathryn. It is GRACE alone, through faith. ]

    We seem to agree. Catholic teaching is we are saved by Grace alone, through faith. All that matters is faith working through love according to St. Paul. Faith, hope, and charity are gifts from God according to Holy Scripture. There is no way to work ones way to heaven by human effort. Salvation is by Grace alone.
     
  11. Kathryn

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    [Excuse me, but when did communication become a work? When you have conversation between yourself and your best friend, is that work? Is it a work to speak to your earthly father? Is it work to speak to your pastor? Is it work to speak to your biship?

    Biblical Prayer is conversation between man and His God! I don't see how that could possibly be a work. ]

    Yelsew: So if a Christian does something out of love and obedience to God it isn't really a work. I would have to agree. Prayer sure doesn't feel like a work to me. Obeying and responding to God with human actions is natural to a Christian. But doesn't that extend to anything good a Christian does for the love of God?
     
  12. Yelsew2

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    Helen,
    "SAVED BY GRACE-ism" is "universal salvation" because God provides His grace unilaterally and universally to all mankind.

    FAITH ALONE is how "mankind" must respond to God's UNIVERSAL Grace in order to receive Salvation. It is those who-so-ever's that believe in Jesus, even on his name, that receive Salvation. ALL WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, do not receive God's Salvation EVEN THOUGH they have received GOD's GRACE.

    IT IS FAITH ALONE that saves!
     
  13. Helen

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    I'm sorry, Yelsew, but the Bible says differently. You know the verses -- they're in Ephesians 2. The grace is offered universally, and it is what saves. However the response of submission in faith removes the human blockage, if you will, to receiving that grace and having it operative in one's life. Nevertheless, if God's grace were not already there and sufficient, all the submission and faith in the world could not save a man.

    We are saved by grace. God's grace. It operates through our response of submissive faith.
     
  14. Yelsew2

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    No Kathryn, because prayer takes no human effort to do, while a human doing good things for God does take effort. The difference is that one requires expenditure of physical energy, while the other does not. Granted, for the nit-pickers, oral speech expends energy, but prayer is what the spirit does and not what the flesh does. The flesh merely makes what the spirit does audible to others. God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship "in spirit and truth", and neither of these requires expenditure of energy.
     
  15. Yelsew2

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    Look at this way Helen, Grace is the church sanctuary (worship hall) where FAITH is developed by those who enter there in.

    Grace is not concerned about who enters it's presence nor who develops faith while therein. God is concerned for all who come to faith while He behaves toward mankind with Grace.

    Grace has no power to save. Likewise, FAITH has no power to save, God alone saves, and he saves only those who have faith in him.

    Connect the dots!
     
  16. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:
    [No Kathryn, because prayer takes no human effort to do, while a human doing good things for God does take effort. The difference is that one requires expenditure of physical energy, while the other does not. Granted, for the nit-pickers, oral speech expends energy, but prayer is what the spirit does and not what the flesh does. The flesh merely makes what the spirit does audible to others. God is spirit and those who worship Him must worship "in spirit and truth", and neither of these requires expenditure of energy.]

    Prayer is very much a human effort, even silent prayer. It's our response to God. Jesus taught this when He would go off and spend whole nights in prayer. The kind of prayer Jesus Christ taught His disciples involved His whole being including His heart and soul. If it required no human effort or no expenditure of energy, the Apostles would have been great pray-ers, yet they were weak, and would fall asleep as Jesus Christ prayed sweating blood. When the thief on the cross prayed to Jesus Christ to remember Him in His kingdom, that took human effort. He was responding to the Grace of God. Ask and you shall recieve. Prayer is absolutely necessary. Without prayer there is no salvation.


    Jesus Christ didn't say: "Hey, prayer is easy, doesn't take any expediture of energy!"

    He did say:
    Mark 14:38
    "Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

    [ March 21, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  17. Yelsew2

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    The form of prayer you are speaking of cannot be prayed by an unbeliever! What you are declaring is Prayer that is a Work. Therefore, it has nothing to do with Salvation, but applies rather to "working out your salvation", which is said another way, "now, that you have salvation do the works that salvation merits".

    The topic title? IS PRAYER NECESSARY FOR SALVATION? The answer is Yes, but the prayer of Confession and belief is not what you describe.
     
  18. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:

    "He that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 7:21 We are unable to do God's will unless we are assisted by Divine grace. We obtain this grace by prayer alone; consequently prayer is absolutely necessary for salvation. Any kind of saving faith has to include doing the will of God.

    And yes, even the prayer of Confession and belief in Jesus Christ requires human expenditure of energy and an ongoing conversion of heart.
     
  19. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:
    [The form of prayer you are speaking of cannot be prayed by an unbeliever! ]

    I have given you prayer examples from Jesus Christ, the thief on the cross and the disciples described in Holy Scripture, and you dismiss the examples as not counting regarding Salvation. Maybe you can give me an example from Holy Scripture of an unbeliever who prays to God. And how the unbelievers prayer isn't a work because it doesn't involve any expenditure of human energy. This is what you are trying to show?
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    "He that doth the will of the Father..." Who does the will of the Father? ONLY those who are believers, thus having the promise of eternal life which is Salvation.

    Whenever God is quoted as addressing his Grace, he says "My grace", Not "my graces". God has but one grace which He unilaterally and universally applied to all mankind. There are no divine "special" graces, but there are many "human perceptions" of God's Grace.

    There is but one kind of FAITH, and that is Saving FAITH!
    I am not talking about prayers given by believers, but by those who are initially coming to belief. For it is that initial faith which if sustained throughout this natural life, is SAVING FAITH.

    Prayer is not a work! Accept in the Catholic church!
     

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