Is predestination disturbing?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by David Ekstrom, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. David Ekstrom

    David Ekstrom
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    Saw a course on Luther that planned to discuss his teachings, including his "disturbing" ideas about predestination. Well, let's forget Luther for the minute. Is predestination disturbing or comforting? God doesn't put things in the Bible to make us smart but to make us holy. Rom. 8:28-30 are some of the most blessed verses in the Bible. As I understand the verses, Paul relates a chain of five links: foreknown > predestined > called > justified > glorified. These links will not be broken. Each and every one who is foreknown will be glorified. Do you agree? Does the idea of predestination scare you or comfort you?
     
  2. JGrubbs

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    I believe that in his great foreknowledge God has always know who would and wouldn't accept his free gift of salvation, but that he has predestined no one to die and go to hell, it is His will that all are saved, but he knows that some will reject Him because of He has given them a free will.

    Here's a brain twister...When God created Adam and Eve he not only knew that they were going to sin, but he knew what would happen had they choosen not to sin. They were not predestined to sin, but through their free-will choose to sin.
     
  3. whatever

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    Since God knew before they sinned that their destiny was to sin how could their sin not be predestined?
     
  4. TexasSky

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    Since God knew before they sinned that their destiny was to sin how could their sin not be predestined?

    Knowing someone well enough to know what they will do is different than forcing them to do it.
     
  5. whatever

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    Calvinists say they chose to sin. Who says they were forced?
     
  6. JGrubbs

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    Since God knew before they sinned that their destiny was to sin how could their sin not be predestined? </font>[/QUOTE]Your making the mistake of trying to comprehend God's mind. Our human minds were never meant to understand God's mind. Because God knows everything, he knew what would happen if they choose to sin, and what would happen if they choose not to sin, all the while knowing what choice they would make. Our God is an awesome God and we will never fully comprehend his greatness!
     
  7. JGrubbs

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    Calvinists say they chose to sin. Who says they were forced? </font>[/QUOTE]I thought Calvinist didn't believe in people having a "free-will" choice, that God had already planned out and choosen who would and wouldn't accept Him from before the foundation of the earth, that He had created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world so that He could then send his only son to die for those he had already choosen to be His elect, while not providing a way to escape from the pits of Hell for those that He had not choosen to be His elect....Now I have a headache. :eek:
     
  8. BobRyan

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    God has "predestined ALL to become conformed to the image of his Son" -- ALL that He foreknew - and of course Arminians believe He "foreknew ALL things".

    Is there "another kind" of predestination you believe in?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. StefanM

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    Calvinists say they chose to sin. Who says they were forced? </font>[/QUOTE]I thought Calvinist didn't believe in people having a "free-will" choice, that God had already planned out and choosen who would and wouldn't accept Him from before the foundation of the earth, that He had created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world so that He could then send his only son to die for those he had already choosen to be His elect, while not providing a way to escape from the pits of Hell for those that He had not choosen to be His elect....Now I have a headache. :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]Calvinists generally believe:

    Everyone has free-will in the sense that they are able to choose that which lies in their realm of ability.

    Supralapsarians believe that God decreed election, then the fall, then the creation.

    Infralapsarians believe that God decreed creation, then the fall, then election.

    Calvinists... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  10. whatever

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    I do agree. To me it comes down to whether we trust God to control the future or whether we want to be in control ourselves. Knowing what I know of God's character it is a great comfort to know that He has planned every event and circumstance for His glory. I find great joy in the realization that He has left nothing to chance.
     
  11. StefanM

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    To split hairs. . . it's not so much predestination that is the problem; it's election.

    Those who are elected are predestined to be conformed in to the likeness of Christ, and will be glorified (per Romans 8).

    The question is. . . what kind of election is happening?
     
  12. whatever

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    There's where you went wrong.
     
  13. whatever

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    No, I am trying to understand what definition of predestined you are using, where events that were destined to happen before they happened were not predestined.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    What about "election by genetics" where all the children and grandchildren (speaking of the flesh) of the elect are ALSO elect?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Wes Outwest

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    Take an INNOCENT newly created man, place him in an Idealic garden on a planet where evil had been expelled to, with a beguiling serpent and the result is?
     
  16. inpeace

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    Wasn't it the result of Adam and Eve's 'free will choice' that caused the plunge of the whole entire human race into sin? So then, what happened "after" they made that choice....Was man still "free" at that point? Does that mean that everyone during the time of the flood chose to reject to do good except for Noah and his family? If I'm totally 'off track' here please let me know... I am really interested to hear about where in the bible we begin to learn about a free will to choose to accept or reject Christ - OT or NT?
     
  17. whatever

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    Everybody in the Bible, OT or NT, did what they wanted. Everybody who wanted to get into the ark with Noah did so, and everybody who wanted to stay out died in the flood. Everybody who wanted salvation from bondage in Egypt walked through the Red Sea on dry ground. Everybody who wanted to enter the promised land walked through the Jordan on dry ground. Everybody who wanted to obey God did so, and everybody who wanted to sin did so. Everybody who wanted to trust Christ in the NT did so, and everybody who wanted to remain in their sin did so. It was always this way, and it is still so today.
     
  18. inpeace

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    thanks, i might have to re-visit my book of genesis again, i thought God instructed Noah on who he was to take onto the ark with him?

    inpeace
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    Because man is a created being in a created environment, man's free will cannot exceed the bounds of that created environment....That's the way God created man, to be all that man can be within the bounds of the creation! With those bounds man has free will to do as his knowledge and upbringing allow. You cannot limit what God has established for man, within bounds of the freedom that God has given to man. God does not force man to conform to anything, He placed before man, Life and Death, and told man to choose life....but left the choice to man!
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Evil was restricted to one tree only - the tree of knowledge of evil. Mankind (two at the time) was warned to stay away from it - not to eat from it.

    They had "plenty of food".

    There is no reason to think that this was the only place Satan had access to the tree of knowledge in the universe. IF God was not being "partial" then all inhabited planets in the universe were faced with the same problem - but only this one fell into sin.

    Free will -- but not deterministic failure. There is no rule that all who CAN fall WILL fall in the universe God maintains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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