Is psalm 88 about Jesus? Did he suffer in Sheol and was born again?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I listened to Derek Prince (famous pentecostal bible teacher, who died a few years ago) and he said psalm 88 is about Jesus and it describes Jesus being in Sheol and suffering. He backed it up with many bible verses. But I bet you will not agree with him and say that this is nonsense. But exactly here is the problem once again. It's actually in the bible...
    According to 1.Peter 3 Jesus also was revived or born again in Sheol which is also denied by the conservative christians. They simply say it's a heresy but the problem is the verse are in the bible. Seems like the bible isn't so easy to understand at all and you really cannot say that this isn't a bible study or that it's superficial. I am asking those which say that this is not true to simply disprove it with the bible! I read those verses and I summed up this whole stuff and I have to say that this sounds very convincing and also very biblical and not made up or wrong. Somebody told me that this is a doctrine of demons that Jesus was born again but 1.Peter 3 says it! I'm really curious and waiting for the biblical refutations of these claims.
    It is simply so tiring. Christians argue about everything. Wether Jesus was left by God on the cross, why he said "why have you forsaken me", what he meant with this, what he meant with saying "It's finished". They simply argue about everything. This makes it look so senseless to even try to understand it because it's all so wishy-washy and there are always 100 different opinions.

    Let's get started with the basic content of Prince's teaching:

    Prince said that dying on the cross was not the worst and that Jesus went down to Sheol afterwards into the complete darkness. He endured the wrath of God which rolled over him and later he preached to the fallen angels which are caught down there and he also freed the believers.
    And the way he explained it makes sense, he named many bible verses and also psalms which deal with just the topic of Jesus going down to sheol. Prince said Jesus had to drink the whole cup which the father gave him til the last drop. This is really hard to imagine what Jesus went through and how he must have felt. I mean dying on the cross was already terrible but then going to Sheol into this absolute darkness is even worse.
    Prince said Jesus died all 3 deaths.
    Spiritual death- being separated from God.
    Physical death-dying on the cross.
    &
    The second death-being banished from the presence of God.

    Prince said that the gospels do not say much about what happened after Jesus died on the cross, but he said that the psalms describe what happened after Jesus' spirit had left his body and went down to Sheol.
    Prince also adds that Sheol is not Gehenna and not the lake of fire.

    Leviticus 16

    5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
    6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
    7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
    9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
    10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

    Prince said we have 2 goats here. 1 goat is sacrificed, the other one is identified with the sin of Israel and then led into the wilderness. Prince says that what happens to this scapegoat also happened to Jesus' spirit after he died on the cross. The scapegoat stands for Jesus' spirit.
    The bible says "wilderness" but Prince said that in hebrew it's not wilderness but a land of separation, this means separation from God. Jesus was separated from God.

    20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
    21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
    22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

    Here we can see how the living goat was identified with the sin.

    Now let's look at psalm 16.
    Prince says that even though this is a psalm from David and even though David seems to be talking of himself cause he says I, that this does not apply to David himself.This can also be seen on psalm 22 where it says >18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.< so you see just because David seems to be talking of himself does not mean this applies to him.

    8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
    9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    And you can see this here:
    David wrote about what would happen to Jesus!

    Acts 2


    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    David talked about Jesus. He says that Jesus was neither left in Hades nor did his flesh decay. Both of these things came true.

    Now look at this:

    1.Peter 3

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    What do we see here?
    The bible says Jesus was quickened by the spirit!
    And it also says Jesus preached to the spirit in prison, meaning the spirits in Sheol.

    And Prince says that spirit in verse 18 does not mean the holy spirit, but Jesus' spirit! This means Jesus' spirit was revived before he came back from Sheol.

    When Jesus preached to the spirits of the disobedient he basically told them that he has the authority now and that he has the keys to Sheol.

    Now let's look at psalm 71. Another psalm from David where David is talking about Jesus.

    20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

    So we see there is an order:

    1) quicken
    2) bring up from the depths of the earth


    Now let's look at psalm 88.

    Prince says that psalm 88 describes Jesus' experience as scapegoat while he was in Hades!

    3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.

    >This describes how tormented Jesus is and that he is nigh unto grave, this means he is near to Hades.

    4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:

    >This describes that Jesus is separated from God.

    6 You have put me in the lowest pit, in the darkest depths.

    >This describes the different levels of Sheol. And Jesus was on the lowest level, in the abyss. Jesus was into the total darkness.

    7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
    8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
     
    #1 xdisciplex, Nov 6, 2006
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  2. xdisciplex

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    Jesus was separated from the jews as a one who got crucified cause everybody who is crucified is made a curse and unclean. Verse 8 describes this.

    >In verse 10-12 David asks questions. Can this really be? And the answer is yes. All of this really happened to Jesus.

    10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
    11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
    12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?


    >Jesus fulfilled everything.He went to Sheol and preached to the dead >and his wonders became known in the dark.

    >Morning in verse 13 describes the morning of the resurrection.

    13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.

    >Verse 14 describes Jesus separation from God. Jesus was made sin because of our sins and this is why God could not look at him.

    14 LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?

    >Verse 15 describes how the shadow of the cross has been upon Jesus since his youth. Jesus knew what was going to happen. Prince also says that very few people have a clue of what God's terror really is. He said that he has dealt with a few people which had tasted a little bit of God's terror and he said that these people are in psychiatric wards now.
    So basically one terror after the other rolled over Jesus like giant waves.

    15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.

    >Verse 18 once again demonstrates Jesus' separation from God and his friends.

    18 Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.

    Now let's look at John 18:11

    Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

    Prince says that Jesus drunk the cup until the last drop and that the cross was not the end of Jesus' suffering.The worst came after Jesus' physical death.

    To sum it up, Jesus did not go to hell and he was not tortured or burnt by Satan like many preachers say but he went to Sheol and he also suffered there.
     
    #2 xdisciplex, Nov 6, 2006
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  3. tragic_pizza

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    I've never met anyone who claimed that Jesus suffered in Hell after dying. Not really sure where to go with the rest; Jesus is eternally God and thus not in need of a salvation experience (which is what I think you're getting at with "born again").

    The only reference we have to Jesus' activities after death is something about "preaching to the souls," which is not suffering.
     
  4. xdisciplex

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    No salvation experience. When you assume that Jesus died spiritually, that he was separated from the Father on the cross then he was spiritually dead. He died spiritually just like Adam and Eve died and this means his spirit had to be born again (revived). It is in the bible. I don't know how else to explain this and I also won't try to simply come up with an explanation to simply "explain" that revived means something else. It's about the truth. I just want to know how it really is.
     
  5. Amy.G

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    1 Peter says nothing about Jesus being revived and born again in Sheol. You know that Baptists are not going to agree with the penecostal doctrine and especially that of WOF. Why do you criticize us for answering your questions according to Baptist doctrine? You are on a Baptist Board. I think you just want to stir up trouble. If you really wanted to learn you would listen to the sound answers you've already been given which have been backed up with SCRIPTURE.
     
  6. xdisciplex

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    Um.... did you even read my entire post? I don't have this impression....

    And no, I am not trying to cause trouble. But I think that it's really senseless to even try to reason with you guys because you only have your opinion and everything which is different is simply wrong. This is really a great attitude for debating. :wavey:
    I brought up valid scriptures and all I get is a "No, it doesn't say that" even though it does. :thumbsup:

    You know what your answer sounds like? It sounds like this:

    I'm a baptist and this means I cannot even disagree with any baptist doctrine and this means that I won't even look into those things anymore.

    What do you do if you find out that Jesus was indeed revived or born again? What do you do then? Or will you simply not even read those verses and think about them because you're scared of finding out something which goes against your theology?


     
    #6 xdisciplex, Nov 6, 2006
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  7. Amy.G

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    I have looked into these things and found them to be false. And I couldn't very well call myself a Baptist if I didn't agree with Baptist doctrine. It's funny that you say you are seeking, but the only thing you're interested in is WOF. Could that be because you ARE WOF? I think that maybe you are and you're just trying to spread your heresy here. You seem to know way too much about it just to be a seeker. I will not be participating in any more dialogue with you.
    Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
    Matthew 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
     
  8. xdisciplex

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    Oh boy...

    first of all as I said Prince was a pentecostal, okay?
    I listened to many of his teachings in the past. Pentecostalism is not the same as WoF and I'm in no way associated with WoF. The problem is simply that everything which WoF teaches is directly dismissed as wrong even if there may also be things which are correct such as this one. But you simply say "This is WoF!!!!!!!! This is wrong! Heresy! Heresy!!!!!"

    This doesn't help me. Once again you simply say it's wrong but you give me no reason therefore. Why don't you explain me WHY it is wrong. I have brought all these verses and you cannot expect me to simply believe that it's wrong without being given an explanation for it. So far I think that Prince' teaching makes a lot of sense. Don't try to pigeonhole me. I am neither WoF, nor pentecostal nor anything else. I simply want the truth and I don't care what it is and where it is. If there is a WoF doctrine which is correct then I won't dismiss it simply because it is WoF, this would be silly.
     
  9. dispen4ever

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    xdx, I read your post and the one following it, and I REJOICED spiritually that you have taken the time to analyze scripture, to post your understanding of it, to ask us to share in your discussion. This is so very different from most of what you post in these forums. I CELEBRATE your calm approach to Psalm 88 and your interpretation of it and other scriptures. I encourage you to continue to look deeply into scripture and to offer up these non-hostile posts! Whether one agrees with your exegesis or not, this is a huge improvement over most of your other messages. You keep keeping on with your study and your calm presentation of it. God's blessings! :applause:
     
    #9 dispen4ever, Nov 6, 2006
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  10. JFox1

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    One doesn't have to be a Baptist to disagree with Word Faith teachings. I'm a Lutheran and I also disagree with Word Faith:

    http://home.computer.net/~cya/cy00052.html

    http://web.archive.org/web/20040213035004/http://www.hbcdelivers.org/wfheresy.htm

    :saint:
     
  11. xdisciplex

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    Thanks but these aren't my thoughts it's simply a summary of what Prince said. I simply took the time to write it all down.
    But actually it was pretty senseless to open this thread. All I get are replies like "This is WoF nonsense" or simply links to websites which say WoF is nonsense. This is not about WoF! This is so silly. This has nothing to do with WoF. It's about the bible! But nobody here seems to have either the guts or the understanding to give a reasonable refutation of those claims. It's ridiculous. I post bible verses and all I get are totally superficial replies which do not even address those verses. Maybe you can raise a child this way and simply tell it that something is wrong without giving any explanation but this doesn't work with adults. Either refute these claims and explain why Prince is wrong and explain what these verses really mean or reply nothing at all. I don't want to hear a general statement that WoF is wrong. This has nothing to do with WoF. I am not quoting Hagin or Copeland I am quoting the bible!!!!
     
  12. tragic_pizza

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    Does the Bible say, literally, that Jesus was "spiritually dead?"

    I don't think it does.
     
  13. av1611jim

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    Logic:
    Jesus was God manifest in the flesh.
    God is a sprit.
    Jesus' spirit CANNOT die since He is God.
    Jesus was NOT born again.

    Obviously, the verses you are looking at mean something else, otherwise we have a direct contradiction in Scripture. Since the Scriptures are inspired of God and He cannot lie, we don't have a contradiction.

    Therefore: the interpretation of those verse is wrong.
     
  14. xdisciplex

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    I think you didn't understand anything... :sleep:

    You can as well ask: Since Jesus is God who did he pray to?

    Sounds contradictory, too....
     
  15. tragic_pizza

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    Does the Bible say, literally, that Jesus was "spiritually dead?"

    I don't think it does.
     
  16. xdisciplex

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    I doesn't directly say it but you can very well interpret the bible this way.
    Why is it so unlikely that just like Adam and Eve were separated from God and died spiritually the same thing happened to Jesus when he was on the cross? Why is it not possible that he was separated from the Father and later on revived in sheol? :confused:
     
  17. tragic_pizza

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    Not in its context, I don't think you can.

    Well, without going into something stultifying about Adam and Eve and all (for example, Scripture says nothing about them dying spiritually), I would argue that, since Jesus was born of God and not through the normal machinations of reproduction, whatever "spiritual death" hangs over humankind didn't apply to Him.

    Further, I would challenge any theology which seeks to complicate an already profound act of sacrifice and reconciliation. Christ's physical death and resurrection is sufficient for all; why pack on unproveable and arcane arguments about the state of the spirit of Christ in His death? What does it accomplish?

    If Christ's spirit suffered death, then one can argue that He is not God, second Person fo the Trinity. If Christ's Spirit descended, as Scripture claims, and preached to the souls in Sheol, then it did not die.

    Finally, I would ask that the word "spirit" be defined and Scripturally defended. We westerners have a very Greco-Roman interpretation of death, you see. We fail to understand that death is the end. In the Old Testament, there is very little talk of an afterlife because the Jewish folk didn't have much of a theology fo the afterlife. a human was a body imbued with the Breath of Life, and when that human died, that human was utterly gone. Frankly stated, in Christianity our only hope is that, through the grace of God we may see death - the utter cessation of all we are, body and soul - overcome by the light and life of Christ.
     
  18. xdisciplex

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    Eh???

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    What kind of death do you think this was? No physical death. They were separated from God in the garden. Just as every human being is born spiritually dead until he gets born again.

    Why?
    I think you either misunderstand me or you don't know what spiritual death is.
    Spiritual death = separation from God
    Jesus, as the second person of the Trinity, could very well have been separated from the Father. Why not?

    I really think you don't know what spiritual death means. It doesn't mean you cease to exist. Every unbeliever is spiritually dead but his spirit is alive even when he dies his spirit stays alive, he doesn't cease to exist.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    THE SPIRIT of Christ was giving witness to all the prophets of the OT according to 1Peter 1 - "The Spirit of Christ WITHIN them" was indicating the sufferings of Christ AND THE GLORY to follow.

    So ALSO in 1Peter 3 the case is made that Christ in Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) was ALSO dealing with those who were ALIVE DURING the building of the ark of Noah. AT THAT TIME -- DURING the building of the ark - He was witnessing to them calling them to repentance.

    Many people love to turn that into a "speaking to the dead story DURING THE TIME Christ was in the grave" -- INSTEAD of speaking to THOSE who LIVED before the flood DURING THE TIME that the ark was being built!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. tragic_pizza

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    Assuming the events outlined in Genesis 1-3 actually occurred, Adam and Eve did eventually physically die, did they not?

    Cite your source.

    Theologically speaking, Jesus most certainly was separated.

    I think you need to define your terms and not be so snotty.
    Prove it.
     

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