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Is repentance necessary to be saved?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Nov 18, 2006.

  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    2Cor:7:10: For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.


    Acts:11:18: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
     
  2. dispen4ever

    dispen4ever New Member

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    The ability to repent comes from God via the Holy Spirit. That means you are in good company right out of the box. It's simple: turn away from your state of being lost to your state of being found in Christ Jesus. Then, every morning, invite a re-infilling of the Holy Spirit. You can't do better than that. :thumbs:
     
  3. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    xdisciplex, I don't usually weigh in on your posts, but I will here, and comment on your questions and sentences, in order.

    Agreed. I say yes, as well.
    Sorry, this asks for a false option. And deejay has already pointed out correctly the NT, at least, definition of "repentance".

    II Cor. 7:10 tells us: 'For Godly sorrow works (or brings or causes) repentance unto an irrevocable salvation, but worldly sorrow works (or brings or causes) death.'

    Bingo! You think maybe the Holy Spirit, Peter, and Luke all knew what they were talking about? :rolleyes: And maybe we are the ones that are not clear in our understanding, for whatever reason today??

    I'll answer these in order. It is/was not necessary to mention it, for "repenting" is part and parcel of "believing". (Note there is a slight difference in the 'force' of a verb form and a noun form which we be expanded on momentarily.)
    The lack of mention of "repenting", in the Acts passage does necessarily "mean you don't even have to repent", at all. But the question is unclear, as asked, thus far. The key question is the next one you asked
    Here is what "repent" means in the NT. There are two words rendered "repent" in the NT, at least in the KJV. The one that is far more common is "metanoeO" (I use the upper case "O" to transliterate 'omega', and the lower case for 'omicron', to differentiate.), and is used some 30 times. This word means to think afterward (or differently), and in fact contains within itself the root word ("nous") for 'mind' hence is associated with the intellect, and is the word the NT uses in every instance as having anything to do with salvation. The second word rendered "repent" is "metamellomai", and is used 6 times. This word means to care (or feel) afterward (or differently), and contains the middle voice of the root word ("melo") hence, a reflexive use for 'concern' or 'to concern oneself', and is associated with the emotions. The word rendered "repentance" in the NT in every case, is the word "metanoia" the noun form of "metanoeO', and thus, refers to "a change of mind".

    The OT word is apparently "nacham" (And here I am relying on several others, not understanding neither any Hebrew nor Chaldee.), and appartently carries the force of "to be eased", or of 'reflexive compassion' and is probably closer to 'metamellomai', than to 'metanoeO', although there could be some slight 'blurring' here, IMO. (There are three instances where the KJV renders "shub" as repent, but it would undoubtedly be better rendered as 'turn' or 'return' or something akin, as it is in some 600 other places in the OT, and in fact, the ASV, RV and NKJV all render it in this manner.) The one OT quote in the NT that has "repent" in some form is rendered with 'metamellomai' in Hebrews 7:21.

    We often get into trouble, IMO, by attempting to read later English, especially 'church speak' back into Scripture. I've heard more sermons than I can count on my 10 fingers where one has spoken about David 'repenting' after his episode with Bathsheba.

    Only one problem with this. The Bible never says this, anywhere, as far as I can tell. Did David 'acknowledge' his sin? Absolutely! Did David 'confess' his sin? Again, the answer is definitely yes. Did David "repent of his sin"? Scripture doesn't say this. In fact, only one individual human in the OT is ever said, in any manner, to repent, and that is Job. (Job 42:6) (And he didn't have to get "cleaned up" to do it, either, for he was already covered "in sackcloth and ashes".) But you might consider that God is said to 'repent' and/or not 'repent' over 30 times. And I assure you, I'm not about to suggest that God was in any way involved with sin.

    And the Bible never uses the phrase "repent of (or for) one(s) sins" in any manner whatsoever, let alone, making some supposed distinction between the ones which "are fresh on one's mind' and the ones "which have been forgotten". And I am very leery of (mis)using the Bible in this manner, personally. I'd personally suggest directing repentance in the two ways found in Scripture, "any...repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." (Acts 20:21) and "...repentance from dead works and faith toward God,"...(Heb. 6:1), and associating it with the related idea of 'faith' found in the same two passages.

    Hope this is a bit informative.

    Ed
     
  4. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    Luke 24:47, according to Greek manuscripts older than what the 1604-11 King James Version translators knew, has "repentance for remission of sins" (NASB).

    Acts 16:31a has “‘Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved’” (NBV, NLT).

    While certainly we are to trust Jesus Christ's ability to save us, I believe the passage is more emphatic in belief ABOUT Jesus: that He is Lord.

    When we really believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, when He says that sin is sin and ought not to be done, we agree and turn to act accordingly. This is repentance, and is part of believing on Jesus as Lord.
     
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    The New Covenant

    Ed,

    What do you think the Bible means when it says "dead works"?


    Heb:6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


    Heb:9:14: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    and what do you do with Hebrews 10:

    24: And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


    Hebrews 8 tells us what the New Covenant is:
    6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
    12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
    13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


    So then think about dead works and what that means in light of the New Covenant? what would living works involve?


    I think John 6 holds the key:

    49: Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
    50: This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
    51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    52: The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
    53: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55: For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56: He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
    57: As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    58: This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
    59: These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
    60: Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    61: When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    62: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
    63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.



    Jer:15:16: Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart

    You have to make the Word of God become a very part of you, dwelling in you and the Spirit dwelling in you... to make you alive... instead of dead works. The Pharisees did dead works.
    You have to abide in Jesus and He in you... His Word in you... the Law must be written upon your heart

    Claudia
     
    #25 Claudia_T, Nov 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2006
  6. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex New Member

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    Um... but I thought that when you realize that you're not a good person and then decide that you cannot go on like this and when you feel guilty for sins which you have done which are on your mind in this moment then you're repenting. Is this not repentance? I only know that I knew that I wasn't a good person and that I decided that it cannot go on like this. :confused:
    How do I know if this was real repentance or only feeling guilty or something else? I bet everybody has a time where he thinks that he's not a good person.
    At this time I also didn't know how you get saved. I only knew that I didn't want to go on like this. I mean I don't really know when I actually repented. Can repentance and getting saved be 2 different events or does it have to directly follow each other? What if a person wants to get right with God and is also sorry but doesn't know how to be saved yet?
     
  7. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    When Peter gave his sermon on the day of Pentecost these folks were under conviction in their heart and they Ask "What MUST we do to be saved?"
    Peters Answer was
    Repent All of you and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of Sin and you shall recieve the gift of The Holy Ghost.
    Nuff Said!
     
  8. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I agree with you
     
  9. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    It feels good to be agreed with.
    In many Churches if a person ask, "What Must I do to be saved", they would have a person get them to fill out a card and then someone would say , "I make a motion that they be taken into the full fellowship of the church " and then someone else will hollar "I second . "
    They may or may not repent. They may really want to be saved but all they get is church membership.
    Churches did not come up with that method by reading the Book of Acts.
     
    #29 atestring, Nov 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2006
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I always thought that made you a member of the local Church not the Body of Christ.
     
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Wow you guys all agree! That is probably a baptist board first. But its too bad your all wrong. What is so hard about believe that makes people want to stick their works on top of it?

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Does Christ justify the ungodly or not?
     
  12. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Not if you dont repent.

    "Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:33

    "When she hath found it," Christ said, "she calleth her friends and her neighbors together, saying, Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I had lost. Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth."

    the multitude on the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19.
     
    #32 Claudia_T, Nov 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2006
  13. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Am I to understand that you have forsaken all that you have? Discipleship comes after salvation. You must be born again first.
    Of course believers need to repent. Believers are going to be judged at the judgment seat of Christ, and should they believe that they are going to come out unscathed when they have unrepented sin in their lives? Certainly not. But that does not mean that Jesus was lying when He said that whosoever believed would be raised up on the last day.

    John 11:25-26
    25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
     
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    James,

    Isa:55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


    Ok well lets look at what it means to be born again then:



    1Jn:5:4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    1Jn:5:18: We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    1Jn:4:7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
     
  15. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    Al;l I can say James is that when Peter was Ask What Must I do to be saved, He answered Repenbt and Be baptized.

    Some might say "Lord Lord" but that does not get them into heaven. The Will of the Father is involved in salvation according to the Bible. What standard do you use for your doctrine?
     
  16. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    No, saying Lord Lord doesn't get them into the kingdom. There are plenty of conditional promises to believers, of reigning with Jesus if they will suffer in this life, and of punishment if they will not. But they do not cancel out the simple gospel of Jesus Christ's substitutionary atonement, and the promise of being raised up on the last day if you will only believe. All the other promises are built upon this foundation. You have to come through the blood or you have no right to any of the other promises.
     
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    In short, dead works are the same as the works of the flesh, or the works done for the purpose of 'keeping the law'. Anything that 'the Law required', has to do with temporal, physical life. Paul tells us very explicitly that "keeping the law" could never equal righteousness. And that the very idea amounted to declaring Jesus' death in vain, or empty. And "the Law", like "Moses", in every instance of these words alone, save one where it is 'shorthand' for "the Law and the Prophets", a reference to the entire OT Scriptures, without any other qualification, in the NT always refers to the Law of Moses, given from God, in the whole or in the part.

    I have said that repentance is necessary for salvation! (More times than I can remember, actually.) Scripture explicitly tells us that, I believe. I have proclaimed just as many times that most of what is purported to be Biblical repentance is not, as well. For Scripture does not ask an English dicitionary what it means, in its proclamations, nor does it seek any 'church approval' or agreement from any organized body, either. What most people see as most 'repentance' (failing to distinguish from 'penance') is not what Scripture is proclaiming. (Okay! So I got away from the "in short" bit- Sorry!)
    BTW, this leads to the next point. Again! And again! "Sigh!" And again. And aga... Repentance is not 'sorrow'!, either, although "Godly sorrow works or 'effects' repentance. All the sorrow one can muster up, has nothing to do with whether or not one 'believes'.
    Scripture does not present-, I do not believe-, I do not 'practice'-, and I do not 'proclaim' any such "Turn or burn!", "Forsake or bake!", "Cry and try or fry!!" religion.

    And one cannot know or prove another's salvation, based on any outward appearance. For 'discipleship' does not equal 'salvation', nor can it in fact, precede salvation- salvation by grace through faith, the only kind there is, that is relevant to this discussion.

    As to Heb. 10., I believe this is actually a reference to the principles of the New covenant, as well. There is no longer a time for the Hebrews to 'start all over' again, each and every year. The 'sin-offering' of the Lord Jesus was a once for all time event. No more was sin and its effects, in essence, 'pushed back', a year at a time, and a new start made annually. "There remains no other sacrifice for sin" (v.18) and there is "no longer a sacrifice for sins" (vs. 25). The Lord Jesus Christ, as the Lamb, 'set us apart', i.e. 'sanctified'us, when He gave His body as the offering once, for all time, (v.10), and it did the whole job (vs. 11-14), 'completing' us once and for all time, in that single offering. The 'rejection' or 'drawing back' from this leads to destruction, (the rest of the chapter), and is an insult to the Holy Spirit, with the accompanying judgment, which is NOT to say or imply that we can somehow 'sin away our salvation', although we can and may 'neglect it' (Heb. 2:4). The judgment may include about anything up to and including physical death, as can be seen in other Scriptures.

    But one thing we are not to do, IMO, is attempt to play "dueling Scriptures", and attempt to use one that may not seem to us as clear as some others, with any Scripture, and when a given scripture is being one of them that is "hard to be understood", assume that it can somehow negate other clear Scriptures. I personally believe that the failure to clearly differentiate between 'salvation' and 'discipleship' is the cause of much Scriptural confusion, today. "Get the hoss' up front, and the cart is fairly easy to pull", get the order reversed, and you have all sorts of problems.

    In His grace,
    Ed
     
  18. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Please don't stick me in that "agree" crowd with some others. For I am not one of the bunch who wants to add any works to salvation. And don't want to be 'guilty by association'. :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  19. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    Faith without works is dead. The Word "Faith" comes from the greek word "pistos". Pistos is a VERB.
    A verb is an action word.
    Faith that has no action is not faith.
    We are not saved by works but by the action of faith.
     
  20. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Let's just quote the passage in question here, becuase there are some terrible injustices done to this passage by a number of groups.

    Acts 2:37 says this:

    The Amplified Bible Now when they heard this they were stung (cut) to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles (special messengers), Brethren, what shall we do?
    The American Standard Version Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?
    The King James Version (Authorized) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
    The New King James Version Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
    The New Revised Standard Version Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
    Holman Christian Standard Bible® When they heard this, they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: "Brothers, what must we do?"
    King James Version (1611) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said vnto Peter, and to the rest of the Apostles, Men and brethren, What shall we doe?
    J.P. Green's Literal Translation And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do? Notice there are several translations here and not a single one of them has what shall we do to be saved as a lot of Christendom likes to add to this verse.

    This is not an eternal salvation passage of Scripture. Notice the message that Peter preaches. He doesn't tell these folks that Jesus died for them, but rather that they are the ones that are guilty of killing Him.

    What they were asking was not how to be saved, but how to right their wrong of killing their Messiah. It's a kingdom message not an eternal salvation message.

    Repentance is for the believer. Now if you want to say one has to repent of who Jesus is then that would be something that a person must do before they can believe, but the Bible is EXTREMELY clear that eternal (spiritual) salvation is by faith apart from ANY works (Romans 4, Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31).
     
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