Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    FreeAtLast has posted that he considers it possible that a person can attain sinless perfection.

    He has offered to point to those who have and how it can be attained.

    I would like to offer him this opportunity to make proof of that thinking.
     
  2. percho

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    MHO

    No.

    I believe when one is born again he will be sinless and unable to sin.

    Born again?

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Clear as mud to me.
     
  3. plain_n_simple

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    "Lord, forgive me, I have sinned." As soon as I realized it in my heart that I sinned, then asked Him forgiveness, I am brand new. Sinless perfection.
     
  4. convicted1

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    The answer to the OP is "yes" and "no". The "yes" is in regards to the soul. The soul has been cleansed by the blood, and has been given the wedding garment, and made perfect. The "no" is in regards to the flesh. It hasn't been cleansed, and still yearns for "self". When the flesh rears up it's ugly head, the soul, through the working of the Spirit, brings it back under subjection.


    The flesh will not be changed into the new glorified state until Jesus comes again in the Cloud, and then that's when our new bodies will be pristine.
     
  5. percho

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    I will build my assembly, (of called out souls with bodies) and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; YLT

    Question? Ultimately in what manner will the church have victory/prevail over gates of Hades instead of it being the other way around?

    Answer 1 Cor. 15:55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' YLT



    Just like Jesus our the Church's souls will be resurrected from Hades along with incorruptible, spiritual, flesh and bone bodies.
    Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    The wedding garment for our soul is the incorruptible body, our house from heaven, to be clothed in, to put on.
     
    #5 percho, Dec 6, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2011
  6. JesusFan

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    What you call "the flesh", we call the sin principle at work in us, the sin nature....

    Fal denies any of that still exists , as we just have our new natures. period...
     
  7. JesusFan

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    Well.....

    Apostle John, one that jesus loved, closest to Him......

    he still sinned when he knelled down to the Angel in Revelation....

    Wonder why he was not able to be "perfect?"
     
  8. percho

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    The flesh is what God created from the elements of the earth. God then breathed into the nostrils of what was created from the elements of the earth the flesh, the spirit of the breath of life and what was created became a living soul. This living soul was weak, it was corruptible and was subject to temptation, which comes not from God, and to lust which gave birth to sin.

    I do not believe this spirit from God that sustains life to be Eternal Holy Spirit but temporal spirit.

    I believe Jesus being conceived of the Spirit Holy God was born a living soul, with the Holy Spirit which stayed with with until he commended to into the hands of the Father. It was his life and by which he lived and he giving it up, died, as dead as dead can be.

    God the Father raised him from the dead, Gal1:1 Resurrected his soul from Hades no more to return to corruption. A2:31&A13:34 Regenerated and renewed with the Holy Spirit Tit3:5 compare to A2:32,33

    As long as we are flesh and blood we will sin and will have to confess that sin, as plain_n_simple posted. When we are born from the dead as spiritual beings we will then no longer be able to sin.

    Just my humble opinion which I believe I can back up with the word of God.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Well, I will let Brother FAL speak for himself. The reason why the flesh is still at odds with a born again soul is because the soul was the only one that got the blood. The flesh is left out of the salvation process. That is where the warfare comes in to play according to Apostle Paul. The soul has been made alive in Christ via the blood. The Spirit then comes in, and takes up His abode, and leads them into all truths. The born again soul can not sin, period.


    Well, again, he can speak for himself, and he has done a pretty good job of it, too. When the flesh "boils up", and begins to want to fulfill its desires, the born again soul, through the working of the Spirit, brings that person back under subjection. If someone claims to know Christ, and is in a state of unrepentent sinning(practicing sin), you'd best mark a big ole "X" on them. A tree is known by what? It's fruit. A spring can not bring forth sweet and bitter water. We are known by our works(not works based salvation), meaning we work for Who we live for. Christians work for Christ, and sinners work for satan. Christians do not work for satan on a consistent basis.

    The OP gave the scenario of someone claiming Christ as Saviour and then getting on a drunk for six months, twenty years down the road. Does a christian stay on a drunk for six months?!?! Ab-so-lute-ly not. We are known by our fruits. And drunkeness ain't one of'em......
     
  10. Winman

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    Well, Noah was certainly on a drunk when he lay in his tent naked. Noah planted a vineyard for the sole purpose of making wine. Who was he making wine for? There was only 8 people alive!

    And it takes around 7 years before you can produce wine from a new vineyard. So Noah tended this vineyard for years with the intention of making wine so he could get drunk.
     
  11. convicted1

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    Well, in the OT, and even before the Law, they did not have the indwelling of the Spirit. The Sprit now leads us in all truths. Be not drunk with wine, which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit. We are commanded to not be drunk.
     
  12. Winman

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    Willis, I am not condoning sin, just showing from scripture that sinless perfection is not shown. Noah had the Spirit upon him, as did David when he sinned with Bathsheba. In fact, David prayed the Lord would forgive him for his sin and not take the Spirit from him.

    Peter was sinning when he separated from Gentiles and Paul rebuked him.

    Christians can and do fall into sin. They shouldn't, but they often do.
     
  13. DHK

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    Charles Finney believed in sinless perfection, but that was just one of many eccentric beliefs he held in his "Oberlin Theology," many of which were heretical.
     
  14. freeatlast

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    Here is the problem. If your mind is made up on the matter no amount of reasonable, or even biblical evidence will suffice as someone will still say but they could have sinned and we just do not know.
    Also you used the term "sinless perfection." Living without sin does not make us perfect. It simply means we lived with no known sin (James 4:17) just as those before the law ( Romans 5:13) as sin is only imputed when the deed is understood as sin. So yes a person can live without sinning, but few do and most are not interested in seeking such. None the less the thief on the cross I believe lived his life after salvation sinless as well as many others since. So it is not only possible, but I believe it has been done.

    Sadly and to our shame and the dishonor of Christ most in the church has not learned this lesson; Romans 6:14,15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    All sin is a choice and no person is pressured (tempted) so greatly that they cannot, not sin.
    1 Cor. 10:13
    There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

    So every time we sin it is a willful choice, and because of that yes we can live without sinning after salvation.
    What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

     
    #14 freeatlast, Dec 7, 2011
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  15. convicted1

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    I, too, do not believe in sinless perfection. But I also don't believe that a true blood bought christian will stay on a six month drunk spell either, which was the scenario that was stated in the OP.
     
  16. agedman

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    Was there a scenario given in the OP?

    Not that I remember.
     
  17. DHK

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    Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (James 4:17)
    --This is simply a definition of sin. It does nothing to support your position.
    You misunderstand that verse. When was there "no law"?
    According to 1John 1:8,10, you cannot and you are simply deceiving yourself, and making Christ a liar. Not a good position to put yourself in.
    A different topic, a different thread. Deathbed salvations. Why not open another thread?
    Sure it has been possible. There have been many people saved within moments of their death, but that is not the subject here.
    To live a life without sin, or a sinless life, or in sinless perfection? There is no such thing and the Bible contradicts such thinking.
    A rebuke to antinomianism.
    Christ is the only one that overcame all sin. You aren't Christ, and neither are any of us. That comparison is almost blasphemous.
    True, but is it a one hundred per cent guarantee for the body of this flesh, that I am going to yield to the Spirit 100% of the time? No, there isn't. You think that verse teaches that you have a warranty, and if it fails you can take it back to God. Sin doesn't work that way. That is why 1John 1:9 is in the Bible.
    You still have an old nature that from time to time allows you to make the wrong choice, the sinful choice. Are you better than Paul?

    For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:19-22)
     
  18. agedman

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    James 4:17 in context does not teach what you desire. James is talking about some who go about boasting what they will accomplish the next day. He clearly states that such boasting is evil and that the promise of tomorrow is not theirs to determine, only God's. It is in THAT context that "to him that knows to do good..." is stated. It should NOT be disseminated into what you would carry it.

    Romans 5:13 in context would disagree with your conclusion.

    Just because the law was not written down in stone that someone could point to and cite the wrong didn't mean it was not imprinted upon the people living before Moses.

    Because the law was imprinted, all people were held accountable - they died (wages of sin is death). In fact, only 8 were saved and that by the direct intervention of God.

    It is an opinion only that the thief (I am assuming you mean the one who ask the Lord to remember him and not the one who jeered) had not sinned. The focus of that section is upon Christ. There is no statement as to what the thieves said when their legs were broken.

    I totally agree that a person should work to sin less each day. It is true that some can "work out their salvation" with seemingly less problems in this carnal world system.

    However, as John stated, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

    A problem comes with the thinking that FAL sets out in recognizing the condition of the believer before God, and the condition of the believer in this world system.

    John never says that a person can live a perfect life without sin in this world, but he does state that a person can live a perfect life without sin in this world.

    Does that sound like double talk?

    Look through a window. What do you see? Now stand were you saw and look through the same window. What do you see? Did you see the window or look through the window? Perhaps you did both.

    From God's perspective (God looking at man through the window of Christ), man is sinless, perfected in Christ, and not the least bit held accountable for or to the standards of the law.
    "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ - the Word) remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

    From the human perspective (man looking at God through the window of Christ), man is ashamed that he is entrusted as an ambassador for Christ in such a faulty, frail, and sin prone condition.
    "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
     
  19. agedman

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    DHK,

    I didn't realize that you answered while I was forming a response. I am soooooo slow!!!

    And I really like how you can state things so concisely!

    Me, I am like the uncontrolled wagon, bounding down the hill, not to be stopped until I either run out of room or run out of energy.
     
  20. DHK

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    I appreciated your answer also, brother.:thumbsup:
     

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