Is sinless perfection possible for the believer before death?

I mean no disrespect in what I am going to say, but I do stand firm on it. What you are doing is two fold. One you are doing the same thing the Pharisees did and the Lord rebuked them for it. You pile on the backs of men loads even you cannot carry.

Second you are condemed by your own self by your own words.
Rom 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin

1 John 3 Whosoever is born of God doth not (practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he (practice)cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I say this in love. If you are in any way leading in bible study or preaching step down as you have some serious issues in your life if you are sinning this much. You also have a serious issue with a false belief about what constitutes sinning and grace. Again I strongly suggest that you resign any position you hold until you are able to see clearly on this as you have to be leading others as much astray as you are on this. NO church can thrive when this kind of belief and practice is in that church. You should not even be leading in music much less teaching. I will be praying for you on this. God bless.

 

Continued...(sorry, I had to cut off that last one for a few minutes).

I would add that this awareness of my own sin should drive me to a constant attitude of repentance, humility, and gratitude that my acceptance before God is not based on my performance. If the whole of my discipleship comes down to avoiding sin, I believe I am going to be very discouraged. But leaning wholy on the grace of God every minute frees me form attempting to "establish my own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3) and submit to and accept the righteousness of God." ...So that I will "be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith."

I believe the Gospel points us to reliance every day on the grace of God, even as we pray daily, "forgive us our sins."

-Grace to you from one, who even as he writes this, not only hopes to bring a hopefully more grace-filled aspect to this discussion, but sinfully hopes it impresses a few people as well.

-Andy

 

All that sounds so spiritual, but it is so wrong. I tell you as a brother you are in great danger with this kind of doctrine. Step down from any church leadership role and research what you are suggesting. God bless.

 

You are right about many things you post on this forum, But I think on this issue you are taking the statements of a few verses too far and making them negate other passages of scripture that would seem to give a different view of this issue...without effectively dealing with passages that might cause apparent conflict with your teaching.

I speak to my senior pastor occasionally about seeking to maintain the right motivation when leading music, while recognizing that on most occasions, my motives are mixed, since I really do want people to think I am doing a good job. Since he and everyone else I have ever spoken to agrees that this is something every leader of any type must deal with and will struggle with their whole lives, I will take his leadership on this issue as opposed to yours.

However, I would be interested if anyone else on this forum agrees with you on this point.

You have not demonstrated a biblical case that it is possible for a Christian to go any length of time perfectly obeying the commands I referred to. I believe it would be premature and arrogant and untrue for me to claim to my church that I normally do keep those commands the majority of the time.

I know you like John MacArthur's teaching, but I have listened to his sermon on 1 John 3:9, and even he does not take it as far as you do.

 

Yes I am aware of what John Teaches on this and actually we are very close if not totally in agreement. The problem may be semantics and my inability to convey my thoughts in type. I can tell you this however with no doubt since you pointed to John. He has never suggested that any person can be a Christian and be sinning almost every moment of every day as you claim you do.

So yes hopefully others who are wise in the Lord will weigh in. I see great danger in anyone who claims they sin almost every moment of the day. It just cannot be supported as someone who is saved from the bible. In your case I pray it just a lack of understanding, but even if that you need to step aside until you understand the truth as you become a target for satan. As I stated I will be praying for you on this. God bless.

 

I am still interested in others weighing in, and I will continue to study this...However I would ask this:

If I find that in much of what I do, I am BOTH motivated by love for God and love for self, how would you say I go about changing this so that I love God with all my heart for a whole day, and in that day "do all to the glory of God."

 

A few Notes from John MacArthur's sermons, some with bolded sections, some with comments, some not:

1. His view here seems to be on the DIRECTION of a person's life, not on how long he goes without sinning.

2. There is also the evidence of a believer's response of opposing and hating his own sin.

Sin is there, but it is not in charge anymore.

There is a definite difference between what he describes here and the life of a believer.

--> This passage gets to the heart of where Jmac disagrees with you.

---------------

-this last one is where I might disagree with jmac, depending on how he defines "have to sin." (he might even qualify these statements by his earlier statements refering to paul's struggle with sin.) I would agree that Christ in our lives makes a dramatic difference, However, I don't see anyone in scripture that ever attained the kind of sin-free days that you are describing.

 

There are Those Involved in This Discussion Who....

.....may be committing: "Sin by hitting the wrong thing. It not only has the aspect of missing the proper goal, but also involves hitting of the wrong target. For example, the Bible says, God is love (1 John 4:8). Any feeling other than love toward our fellow believers is sin."

Some of the so called personal stands by others who insist we can obtain a state of sinless perfection in this body (even though we're saved) is well meaning, but in my opinion, missing the true target.

Let me just ask this one question. Let's say there are folks on this forum, or who drop by for a quick look, and fall under the conviction of someone's personal doctrine, and because of that doctrine, Satan gets a foothold in their spiritual walk, and trips them up.

After all, new believers are very impressionable, and not that strong in their beliefs (yet), and they could be discouraged by some the heavy hitting and accusations. That is why, our views need to have some kind of "disclaimer, or buyer beware, this is merely the commenters opinion, and not God's Word!"

I am afraid that some folks, reading these debates, may get the wrong idea, and really get all messed up in their spirit, and while they may be saved (once saved, always saved), their life could be disasterous because of our wrong teachings about things that won't matter that much when it comes down to eternity.

Isn't salvation the primary thing we are called to do in this life? Where do we get the call (Biblically), to move from being a "witness" to be the ultimate "judge and jury?"

Is this not the same as causing another to "stumble?" Are we not warned to be cautious not to cause another to stumble?

If a person believes so strongly that they are right, but their teaching is actually missing the target or mark (and they don't discover their error until they get to eternity), won't the blood of those they cause to stumble not be upon their hands???

I know we are supposed to share our views and beliefs, but, to insist to the point where we make the other person feel, "What's the use!" It is that not a sin in itself???

That makes what we share with others quite potent, and if we are off just a mere centimeter, we could be at fault for many (or even one) losing their direction, and going astray!

I'm just askin'! This is why the only thing about God that I am strong and convicted on is that we have all sinned, and in need of being saved if we want to get to heaven and have been eternal life!

By the way - I know there are those who will completely disagree with my views and opinions, so save your fingertips, and don't feel obligated to tell me where I'm wrong and why I need to get an attitude and spiritual adjustment. I have already heard most of your opinions (which in my eyes are not any more or less Godly than mine), and personal judgments , and they don't matter much to me, as I am persuaded by that which I have come to believe by forging out my set of cast iron beliefs and doctrines...

I'm not going to change what I firmly believe any more than you who disagree with me, are going to change your direction!!! :BangHead:

The above opinions are just those of this commenter, and I would advise all who read this to use their own spiritual discretion as to what they actually believe. All I can say for sure (in this life) is that I am saved by His Grace, washed in His blood, and going to heaven because of what Jesus did on the cross for me, regardless of what others may think or believe!

 

"The correct view, finally, after wandering through that sort of useless list, the correct view is based upon the tenses in the Greek. Present tenses, all of them, referring to continuous, habitual action. The Christian does not, cannot habitually and persistently sin. He will sin sometimes. He will sin willfully. But he will not sin habitually, persistently and relentlessly. If you have been saved, born again, regenerated, made new, the whole direction of your life is now toward God. The direction of your life is toward holiness. Your mind is set on the Spirit, Romans 8:6. Your mind is set on things above, Colossians 3:2. You are disconnected from earthly things, Philippians 3:19. And so we can say although the believer sometimes sins, yet the ruling principle of his life is opposition to sin so that he hates the sin that he sees in his own life."

I totally agree with that and this is what I have been saying. This is why these people who claim to "backslide are not really Christians. To make a point on this. You do not have to wait and look at the whole life of a person to discern this. Their daily walk will verify what is also their life walk.

"Is this some kind of perfection? No. But it is a direction THE direction of the life of a true believer."

Again I agree. It is about our habitual practice not perfection. I have been saying that also.

"To put it in the language of Romans chapter 6, sin does not reign in us any longer."

True, sin no longer rules us as a lifestyle. So we are now told to rid ourselves of all sin.

"Any unconverted person lives in a condition of lawlessness, rebellion against the Law of God. Don't ever underestimate sin and don't ever define sin only in bits and pieces. There are, of course, individual acts of sin but they only reflect a deeper, profounder, consuming, captivating, dominating, reigning presence of lawlessness that defines the very nature of the unredeemed heart. Lawlessness is open rebellion and defiance toward God. Active rebellion against God's will."

Again I totally agree with that. The person who is doing this is lost.I would also remind you that some people can look like a Christian for a season. Judas is a prime example. The other disciples evidently never suspected him.Some people play church and they have a form of godliness but they deny the power of oit. In other words they will go to a point of ridding themself of sin and bask in grace for the rest (pet sins) claiming no one is perfect.These too are those who practice sin and are lost.

"We know in verse 14 the Law is spiritual, he says. I also recognized that I am of flesh, I'm still human and I am sold into bondage to sin. And then he describes the struggle, "For that which I am doing I do not understand, I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I'm doing the very thing I hate." Therein is the issue, isn't it? I do things, sinful things, but they aren't what I want to do."

Here is where John and I part ways. I do not believe Romans 7 is speaking about a saved person. It says it is speaking to those who know the law and that would be Jews. I believe it is Jews who knows about Christ and are trying to hold onto the lawwhile claiming salvation and Paul puts himself into their shoes explaining what it is like trying to satisfy law through the flesh. He is saying come all the way to Christ who sets us free in the spirit.

"You don't have to be perfect to affirm the goodness of the Law, to affirm the holiness, the righteousness of the Law. You affirm it when you feel sorry over your violation of it.[SIZE=+0] I know, he says in verse 17, that I'm not even the one doing it, it's sin which still indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh, for the wishing is present in me but the doing of the good is not. The good that I wish, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. He doesn't practice it habitually, using the same word that John uses, but in a different context and with a different meaning. He longs to do what is right but he finds himself falling into sin which is not what he wants to do, as evidenced by his penitence."[/SIZE]

Again John and I see this chapter differently. However even with John's understanding and him holding the person is saved he makes it clear sinning is not the practice (lifestyle) of the person. The person wants to get ALL sin out. Any sin for a believer is too much.

"Do Christians sin? Yes. Do Christians have to sin? No. We do sin, 1 John 1 verses 8 and 10, "If you say you don't sin, the truth isn't in you. If you say you haven't sinned, you make God a liar and His Word isn't in you." Yes we sin. Do we have to sin? No. Chapter 2 verses 1 and 2, "I'm writing to you these things that you may not sin. You don't have to sin. We do sin, we don't have to sin. "

Here again we mostly agree. I say mostly because i hold a little different view as to what is being said in 9. The rest I totally agree with. No believer has to sin. All sin is a choice. We know we do not have to sin because of this;
1 Cor 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

God promises we will not be tempted above what we can handle. We just have to use the way of escape he provides. It is a choice to sin.

Lastly you stated this;
"-this last one is where I might disagree with jmac, depending on how he defines "have to sin." (he might even qualify these statements by his earlier statements referring to Paul's struggle with sin.) I would agree that Christ in our lives makes a dramatic difference, However, I don't see anyone in scripture that ever attained the kind of sin-free days that you are describing."

I assure you John means we do not have to sin. He is not speaking in code or some vague manner. Second as long as you hold that Paul is saying in Romans 7 he is struggling with sin then you will never be able to believe what I have been saying or what John has said. Paul was NOT struggling with sin as in sinning a lot. We know this because of chapter 6. Also because of the 3rd chapter of Phl. Paul says this about himself before he received the Lord Jesus.
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul is saying he kept the commandments (the law) before he was in Christ. If he was able to do that while under the law then he is not now struggling keeping the same commandments now that he is in Christ and under grace.

 

All I can go by is myself and my experiences. Whenever I know I have sinned, I ask God for His forgiveness. Now, it might be ten mintues, 30 minutes, an hour, but it sure doesn't take me DAYS to ask Him to forgive me of what I have done. Now, I am not saying I am "holier than thou", but that I know at the very instance I did something He wasn't happy with. I would expect Him dealing with others the same way. And no, God did not force me to repent, and I know that I am His, because He has shown me that I am His.

I have a problem with true blood bought christians finding it easier to sin. If sinning gets easier to a christian, then something's wrong. The Spirit in us is like a bit in a horse's mouth. As long as we are walking in line, there is no tugging. However, when we begin straying, the Spirit will then tug at us, to bring us back in line. Eventually, He will have us back in THE PATH.

 

Willis, You Are Right On....

I can't disagree with anything you say. Even in the midst of my prodigal walk, I never failed to ask for His forgivness and direction, and it didn't take me days, either. I agree that too many professing believers have made it a travesty by making it so easy to sin.

 

Thank you Brother Paul for the kind words. Like I stated, I am not a "holier than thou" person, for I, too, have my faults(many). But to say that sinning gets easier to a christian is befuddling(sp?) to me. In fact, the further we stray, the harder the Spirit tugs to get us back in line. So, IOW, it should be harder to sin, rather than easier.

 

Now with that I can agree. Except the use of the term prodigal. True believers will be confessing and seeking to be set free from the sin that is is hindering their walk with the Lord rather then wallowing in and enjoying their sin.

 

Jesus was the lamb of God, who took upon Himself my sins, took my due punishemnt/wrath of God directed against sin BUT

In all of that, he NEVER actual became a sinner, changed His nature from perfect man to fallen sinner, as that would mean that jesus would have ahd to die for His own sins, needed to get born again...

THAT is what word of faith teaches, NOT the Bible!

he was my sin bearer, sin offering on my behalf to God, but NEVER actually became a sinner!

 

Just 2 quick questions for you Fal!

Who in the Bible other than Jesus ever claimed that they were without sin?
Who did God say was without sin in Bible?

 

The ONLY way that it MIGHT support what you teach and believe on this area is IF we no longer have our sin natures...

Alas, the Bible teaches that Apostle paul struggled with it at times after being saved, that he DID find liberty in Christ by empowering of the HS in Him, but STILL had to rckon his flesh dead to sin, alive in Christ daily!


So until death, or rapture, ALL will still have that sin nature/flesh/principle to deal with daily, and "sinless perfection" only after God removes it when we get new glorified bodies

 

Well we do not have sin natures if we are saved. Our new nature is one of righteousness , but we are left with a fallen body to battle and take victory over.