Is the Anti KJVO Movement making a difference?

Yep, I read 'em all, intently. None of them support KJVOism, or any other translation-onlyism. In fact, the context in which they were written had nothing to do with the topic of translations at all.

I'm not asking for much. I want to adhere to scripture in my life as much as possible. If scripture says I'm to adhere to only one specific translation, then I'll be happy to do it. You'd think that providing such scripture would be an easy task for someone who adheres to that doctrine.

 

But some have. Isn't that called KJVO?

 

Excellent point!

 

Just a reminder from the definitions thread:

These are the definitions of KJVO that I have a serious problem with:

KJVO #4 "I BELIEVE THE KING JAMES IS INSPIRED"

This group, by far the majority of the KJVonly, believe that the KJV itself, as an English translation, is inspired and therefore inerrant. A person who would dare to defend or even use another translation of the Bible are rejecting the "true" and "real" Bible, the only Word of God.

To this group, any "change" (added words, omitted words or verses, different choices of English words, modern words) is deviation from the truth and therefore "corrupt". The standard is always the KJV. They believe that God providentially gave the translators wisdom and guided them so that they translated all of the words correctly. As a result, they believe the King James Version is the perfectly preserved Word of God in the English language.

"The King James Bible Alone = The Word of God Alone."
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quote:
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KJVO #5 "I BELIEVE THE KJV IS NEW REVELATION"

This group believes that the KJV was supernaturally inspired in such a way that the English text itself is inerrant revelation. The Bible was "re-inspired" in 1611, rendering it in the English language.

These would say that the Greek/Hebrew should be changed to agree with the "new" revelation in 1611 and that all translations into other languages (Spanish, French, etc) should match the KJV.
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The class 3 definition regards the TR.

michelle, please show us the Scriptures, (all you need to do is provide the references. We all have Bibles handy to look them up), that support KJVO 4 and 5.

The argument abt. the TR itself is different as it has to do with the underlying text itself. I'm interested in knowing what Scriptures support positions 4 and 5, that's all. Please, if possible, include a sentence or two explaining how the cut and paste Scriptures support those defintions of KJVO. Thank you.`

 

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What you have NOT done is provide the Scriptures that say the KJV is that Word to the exclusion of all other translations. To believe that is to believe a lie. KJVOnlyists of classes 4 and 5 believe a false doctrine that they can not support from Scripture. It is THEY who have the unScriptural position.
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Oh, indeed I have, and I will again share it with you:


Then YOU should also reject the KJVO myth since it's clearly non-Scriptural.
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Actually, what is non-scriptural is condoning of alterations of the words of the Lord whether by additions, omittions, changes:


Deuteronomy 4

1. Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.
2. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
3. Your eyes have seen what the Lord did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the Lord thy God hath destroyed them from among you.
4. But ye that did cleave unto the Lord your God are alive every one of you this day.
5. Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the Lord my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8. And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
9. Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
10. Specially the day that thou stoodest before the Lord thy God in Horeb, when the Lord said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.


Proverbs 30

1. The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
2. Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man.
3. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
4. Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
5. Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
7. Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die:
8. Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
9. Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the Lord? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.


Revelation 22

17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Matthew 18

12. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13. And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


The scriptures have given at least (3) witnesses of this truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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cult: 1. a system of religious worship or ritual 2. devoted attachment to a person, principle, etc., 3. a sect - cult'ism' n. cult'ist n.

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Websters Encylopedic unabridged Dictionary of the English Language:

4. a group or sect bound together by devotion to or veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. a religion that is considered or held to be false or unorthodox and unscientific.
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Yes, your definition is the same I provided. So please now give your scriptural support to your false claim about us that we are a cult and have cultish beliefs. Accusations come very easy, but you lack the support for your false claim, not only scripturally, but by the very definition of the word.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

How do MV's "omit, change, or add" to the Word of God any differently than the KJV?

Your Scriptures are only valid if KJVO 4 and 5 are true. They do not establish the doctrine of KJVO as believed by class 4 and 5 adherents.

We believe a doctrine because it is ESTABLISHED BY Scripture, not be cause we can find Scripture that supports the doctrine. That is not how doctrine is formulated properly. You are assuming the truth of the KJVO position about itself and then arguing the premise (that is called circular thinking, by definition). That's the problem, the position is not linear. The doctrine is not ESTABLISHED by Scripture. There is an idea of preservation of God's Word. We accept this doctrine. However, the KJVO 4 and 5 take this too far by ascribing it to that version ONLY. Where is the Scripture that establishes KJVO 4 and 5?

 

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31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
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Have you not called our scriptural beliefs gnostic and cultish? You have, and without one shred of evidence or scriptural support for your false claims. If the shoe fits, wear it.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

This has gone to the extreme of sensibilities. If you guys think this particular battle is worth fighting, go for it, I may join back later, but for now, it is so far off the deep end that I would rather pick my battles.

I'm certainly not worried about this disagreement negatively effecting any people out there.

 

JohnV, that's the only scripture you are going to get. Now that we have found out that the Bible is talking about the KJV all along, but won't name it because it is a "human name", then you might as well give up.

Michelle has invented herself a brand new KJVO tactic. Its not named, but that's what it is talking about. (How do you know?. . . God told me.)

 

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Michelle, is the NASB the Word of God? Yes or No.

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The NASB only contains part of the words of God, and has shown that it has ALTERED the words of God. Therefore, I must and do REJECT it as the pure words of God that God has promised and warn against it. As the scriptures have also said:


2 Corinthians 2

1. But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2. For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
3. And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4. For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
5. But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6. Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9. For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
10. To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
11. Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
12. Furthermore, when I came to Troas to preach Christ's gospel, and a door was opened unto me of the Lord,
13. I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
14. Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16. To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17. For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Again, she pulls it out of context. Paul is talking to the people who are rejecting Christ and therefore corrupting the Word of God.

Ask her which version of the KJV is the inspired word and why the apocrypha was translated in 1611. You will get the same run-around and another unrelated clip-n-paste.

Just couldn't resist helpin' the warriors out in the little battle again.

As for scriptures related to KJVO JohnV, you are going to be waiting a LOOOONG time; as if you don't already know that.

 

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Interesting, she doesn't know who Ruckman is, knows nothing about him, but knows that we do not understand what he really says. . . If her statement could be made into one word it would be an oxymoron.
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NO, what I said is you are confusing what Ruckman has said because you are implying he means "new" revelation, rather than "advanced" revelation - as he has said, because you confuse the meanings of these two words based upon what you say he believes. You are giving a clearly wrong impression of what he believes, and it is because you are not understanding due to your lack of understanding the difference between these two words.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Again, same old question, where does verse 17 talk about the NASV or any translation?

If I accepted to Vuglate as God's Word I could make the exact same claim about the KJV.

 

But, you said you didn't know anything about him? How would you know we don't know what he "really" says?

 

For some reason, the post will not let me edit it. I did not get Michelle's quote in. Oh well, go back one page and read her remark.

(No, it wasn't a time out, it was a messed up "source-code" thing. apparently a glitch.)

 

Excellent point, C4K. That is an interesting angle.

It is interesting that we (some people) are claiming "word for word" exactness of the KJV. But, they can't say, which KJV.

Michelle, which KJV is exactly word-for-word accurate, down to the period and comma?

 

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STRAW-MAN--again, it doesn't matter what you twist my words to say it is irrelevant. Man translated the KJV, it was not inspired. If it was, the apocrypha would have been left out from day 1.
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I have not twisted your words. I presented them just as they were said, and exposed them to scriptural truth. They reveal on their own.
You have not one scriptural support for your belief that God has nothing to do with a translation, nor that he could NOT PROVIDE IT in any language perfectly. You ARE limiting the power and ability of God and preservation of those perfect words in any language, and also deny the truth of what He has said concerning HIS WORDS:

Psalms 12

1. Help, Lord; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
2. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
3. The Lord shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
4. Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
6. The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
8. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


If you cannot, and do not believe God can do this, and has done this, how then can you believe He will resurrect you one day? If God has the power and ability to do the one, why then does HE not have it with the other to which God has also said:

Psalms 138

1. I Will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
2. I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
3. In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul.
4. All the kings of the earth shall praise thee, O Lord, when they hear the words of thy mouth.
5. Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the Lord: for great is the glory of the Lord.
6. Though the Lord be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off.
7. Though I walk in the midst of trouble, thou wilt revive me: thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me.
8. The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O Lord, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.


and....


John 5

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33. Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


John 1

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, would you quit quoting Psalms 12:7 when in context verse 5 applies:

5. For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the Lord; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

And NO you misquoted my words every time you remarked, as you often do everybody that disagrees with you.

You are the one who has the doctrine that is not in the Bible. I never said God didn't have a hand in translations, but where do you find that God's hand was ONLY in the KJV? It AIN'T there, Michelle.