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Is the Bible really God's Word? Some say "not all of it"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 18, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A few have been brave enough to tell a few stories here and spin some yarns -- to justify the rejection of these very obvious texts.

    God said -
    John 16
    12 ""    I have many more things     to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
    13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,     He will guide you into all the truth    ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 ""He will glorify Me, for     He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
    15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He     takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]

    Paul SAID -

    1Thess 2
    13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.


    As it is pretty clear that I am inclined to go with the Word of God on this point and not the story telling that we see in the previous posts - I suppose we will have to agree to differ on this point.

    But the OBVIOUS points remain for the reader not blinded to such truths.

    1. The text of John 16 and 1Thess 2 as quoted above does not negate the fact that Matthew WRITES Matthew or that Jude WRITES Jude.

    2. What it argues is that IN ALL OF THAT - what you have is NOT the "teaching of man" but the "teaching of Christ" via inspiration.

    3. Therefore when we look for a given doctrine (let's say the doctrine on everlasting fire in this case) it is perfectly correct to READ what Christ is teaching the NT church in Matt 10:28 and in Matt 25:41 AND in Jude 7 on this important doctrine.

    4.The rabbit trail that would argue that the books of Samuel quote David not God -- misses the entire point.

    5. It is STILL the WORD OF GOD "TEACHING" us even when Saul or Johnathan are being quoted because GOD is the one teaching us the lesson - using the story of David.

    It is GOD that reveals the details to MAtthew regarding the temptation of Christ in Matt 4 so it STILL GOD TEACHING - it is STILL the WORD of God as SCRIPTURE teaching us through the events of sacred history! And this is even more the case when it comes the Apostolic Teaching of NT authors - CHRIST is doing exactly what HE said HE would do through the Holy Spirit - teaching us of the "MANY MORE THINGS" that HE has to say.

    Sadly - some Baptists claim they have apparently rejected this Bible truth and so "we differ".

    Iin Christ,

    Bob
     
    #21 BobRyan, Mar 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2007
  2. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    1 Corinthians 7:12 (KJV) But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

    These were Paul's words, not the Lord's. To say it is the Lord's words makes the Word of God a lie. For Paul clearly stated this was his opinion, not the Lord's.

    In the 11 verses prior, Paul was speaking via the Words the Lord wanted Paul to say. In verse 12 Paul stated his own beliefs.
     
    #22 His Blood Spoke My Name, Mar 20, 2007
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Bible is the WORD of GOD - not merely the WORD OF MAN.

    But as HBSMN claims some Baptists here would not agree - they would take parts of it and claim that the source - the inspiration the TEACHING is in fact merely "These were Paul's words, not the Lord's. To say it is the Lord's words makes the Word of God a lie"

    Of course the convuluted argument that claims "you make the WORD OF GOD is a LIE IF you claim that it is in fact the WORD OF GOD" -is "obviously" a tortured form of reason that I for one could never recommend to anyone in place of trusting in God's Word as "The TEACHING of Christ" in the obvious examples I just gave in my previous posts.

    Paul's statement about not having a direct vision regarding his teaching on some point- does not negate it as the Teaching of Christ - for there are those of us who actually BELIEVE that "God is Sovereign" HIS WORD is true and HE overrides in the matters of scripture.

    Just stating the obvious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #23 BobRyan, Mar 20, 2007
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Baptist argument against the texts listed in John 16 and 1Thess 2 is of the form

    "ALL scripture IS inpsired by God EXCEPT this one... and this one... and this one... and.... .. AND EVEN when we DO admit that it IS the Word of God in Apostolic letters it is NOT the teaching of Christ no matter what John 16 says to the contrary".

    That kind of argument appears to be completely satisfactory to at least 3 on this board who have been kind enough to admit this in public on this thread.

    But I stand in favor of God's Word none-the-less.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #24 BobRyan, Mar 20, 2007
  5. His Blood Spoke My Name

    His Blood Spoke My Name New Member

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    If you truly stood in favor for God's Word, you would not testify against it as you do.
     
    #25 His Blood Spoke My Name, Mar 20, 2007
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, you do not stand on the Word of God; you are making your stand on slander and slander alone. Not one of us have said: "All Scripture is inspired by God EXCEPT..." That is slander, lies, and if it keeps up Bob, will warrant some kind of action. All of us have repeatedly said that All Scripture is inspired of God. Now if you don't want to believe our explanation of what inspiration is, you need to take time and study that issue out to come to a better understanding of the doctrine of inspiration. But there is no one here that has said that the Bible is not inspired. Slander is unacceptable.
     
    #26 DHK, Mar 21, 2007
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A few people here have struggled pretty hard to turn a blind eye to this portion of God's Word.

    As it is pretty clear that I am inclined to go with the Word of God on this point and not the story telling that we see in the previous posts - I suppose we will have to agree to differ on this point.

    But the OBVIOUS points remain for the reader not blinded to such truths.

    1. The text of John 16 and 1Thess 2 as quoted above does not negate the fact that Matthew WRITES Matthew or that Jude WRITES Jude.

    2. What it argues is that IN ALL OF THAT - what you have is NOT the "teaching of man" but the "teaching of Christ" via inspiration.


    Just stating the Obvious - because on this section of the BB - that is my role. It is primarily left up to me to state the obvious - in favor of God's Word... and do it "repeatedly"

    A very few on this board have argued against the texts listed in John 16 and 1Thess 2 in the form

    ALL scripture IS inpsired by God EXCEPT this one... and this one... and this one... and.... .. AND EVEN when we DO admit that it IS the Word of God in Apostolic letters it is NOT the teaching of Christ no matter what John 16 says to the contrary

    They make self-conflicted statements like
    That kind of argument appears to be completely satisfactory to at least 3 on this board who have been kind enough to admit this in public on this thread.

    But I stand in favor of God's Word none-the-less.

    Others are content to issue total fabrications -
    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #27 BobRyan, Mar 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And the point of John 16 quoted above is that CHRIST Himself claims to be TEACHING us through the inspired Word. "I have many more things to say to you but you can not bear them now".

    False.

    But the OBVIOUS points remain for the reader not blinded to such truths.

    1. The text of John 16 and 1Thess 2 as quoted above does not negate the fact that Matthew WRITES Matthew or that Jude WRITES Jude.

    2. What it argues is that IN ALL OF THAT - what you have is NOT the "teaching of man" but the "teaching of Christ" via inspiration.

    3. Therefore when we look for a given doctrine (let's say the doctrine on everlasting fire in this case) it is perfectly correct to READ what Christ is teaching the NT church in Matt 10:28 and in Matt 25:41 AND in Jude 7 on this important doctrine.

    4.The rabbit trail that would argue that the books of Samuel quote David not God -- misses the entire point.

    5. It is STILL the WORD OF GOD "TEACHING" us even when Saul or Johnathan are being quoted because GOD is the one teaching us the lesson - using the story of David.

    It is GOD that reveals the details to MAtthew regarding the temptation of Christ in Matt 4 so it STILL GOD TEACHING - it is STILL the WORD of God as SCRIPTURE teaching us through the events of sacred history! And this is even more the case when it comes the Apostolic Teaching of NT authors - CHRIST is doing exactly what HE said HE would do through the Holy Spirit - teaching us of the "MANY MORE THINGS" that HE has to say.

    Iin Christ,

    Bob
     
    #28 BobRyan, Mar 21, 2007
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    [FONT=&quot]DEFINITION: "Inspiration is that extraordinary supernatural influence exerted by the Holy Ghost on the writers of Our Sacred Books, in which their words were rendered also the words of God, and therefore, perfectly infallible." (Benjamin Warfield, Inspiration and Authority, p. 420)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"Inspiration may be defined as that operation of the divine Spirit which renders a speaker or writer infallible in the communication of truth whether or not previously known." (Bancroft, Christian Theology, p. 24)[/FONT]

    Note the above traditional definitions of inspiration. Inspiration does not teach that all the words in the Bible belong to Christ. The words in the Bible belong to the various ones who spoke them: whether they were of Satan, the Pharisees, Balaam's ass, Samson, Delilah, Jezebel, Ahab, etc. Words, even in the inspired Word of God, are attributed to the one who said them. It can be no other way, else you make God the author of evil.
    One cannot say that the wods that Satan said (as recorded by Matthew) are the words of Christ. Christ does not deny himself, nor is he the same person as Satan. That would be blasphemy. The entire book is inspired. All that means is that every word of the Gospel of Matthew is written down exactly as God intended it to be written down: whether the original author of those words were of Satan or the Pharisees. They certainly weren't of Christ. Inspiration does not mean that Christ said them. It means that the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles in writing what God wanted to be written--some of which were the exact words of Christ, some of which were the words of Satan, some of which were the words of the Pharisees, the disciples, and many others. They were not all the words of Christ, and neither were the words of Jude. To be inspired of the Holy Spirit does not make them the words of Christ.
    Please learn more about the doctrine of inspiration before you turn it into something heretical as you have been doing on this thread.
     
    #29 DHK, Mar 22, 2007
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The claim is NOT made by those who actually believe that ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God and that Christ IS TEACHING as HE SAID He would in John 16 through inspiration of the Holy spirt -- that Satan is speaking the Words of Christ in Matt 4. That is merely a "rabbit trail" put forth by those who are desperately trying to game the topic.

    Rather te CLAIM that has been put forward is that when Christ REVEALS the Words of Satan - the words SPOKEN by Satan to Matthew it is to TEACH a gospel truth in sacred history.

    EVEN when Luke states that he RESEARCHES the information about the life of Christ and inspiration INCLUDES that research it is STILL the Spirit of Christ USING that to TEACH the NT Church important GOSPEL truths. The wild extremist attempts to DIVORCE God from participation and TEACHING in those instances of scripture is sadly and blatantly gaming the topic.

    As always - it is left up to me to point out the obvious on this section of the BB.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #30 BobRyan, Mar 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2007
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan
    A few have been brave enough to tell a few stories here and spin some yarns -- to justify the rejection of these very obvious texts.

    God said -
    John 16
    12 ""    I have many more things     to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
    13 ""But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes,     He will guide you into all the truth    ; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 ""He will glorify Me, for     He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
    15 "" All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He     takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.[/b]

    Paul SAID -

    1Thess 2
    13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.


    As it is pretty clear that I am inclined to go with the Word of God on this point and not the story telling that we see in the previous posts - I suppose we will have to agree to differ on this point.




    And the point of John 16 quoted above is that CHRIST Himself claims to be TEACHING us through the inspired Word. "I have many more things to say to you but you can not bear them now".

    Not ONLY is it the case that the APOSTOLIC teaching we find in places like the book of JUDE is in fact the TEACHING of Christ to the NT church but EVEN the writing of the OT Bible writers is in fact the TEACHING of Christ as we are told by Peter.

    1 Peter 1
    10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
    11 seeking to know what     person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b]
    12 It was [b]revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you[/b], in these     things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you[/b] by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

    Sadly in the "deny-all" and "game-the-text" tactics of some on this board this all becomes so much more Bible to be ignored!

    How sad.

    Yet How instructive.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #31 BobRyan, Mar 22, 2007
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    With all due respect, it seem to me that you guys (and gals??) are arguing semantics. FTR, this first quote is an undeserved 'shot' at some posters, and I, for one, am not 'rejecting any "of these very obvious texts"'.
    As one said, (citing and conflating from my memory) 'Not one person here, is arguing against II TIm. 3:16, which says (literally):
    ' Got it?? Good!

    All Scripture is God-breathed-out, and is profitable, etc.

    That includes the lies of Satan, the wonderful history of Israel, the genealogies of the OT, the words of Jesus, himself, as recorded by the writers, the written down records and teachings of the apostles, and the glorious Revelation of Jesus Christ, as recorded by John, from Gen. 1:1 thru Rev. 22:21. Each and every word is an accurate recording done according to the Spirit's "inspiration". And not everything was recorded as Scripture, for example, Paul apparently wrote two epistles, that the Spirit did not have as 'inspired', one to the Laodicean church, and another one to the Corinthian church, and Luke tells us that many wrote 'gospels', and they are not recorded, nor do we even have much, if any record of this "many". This Scripture tells us of the 'mode', if you will, of this 'inspired revelation'. (Language Cop says I'm getting extremely technical, here, but I told him to go hunt for grammatical and spelling errors.)
    One would be well served, to consider that Peter set this standard to contradict the 'false teachers', in that II Peter 2 is almost entirely written about these "false teachers", whom he aligns with the "false prophets" from another time, I presume the OT days. And did you note, that Peter placed these written words ("confirmed", NKJV, - "made more sure", KJV) above his own experience, at the transfiguration of the Lord? The written word of God was and is more sure than any of our experience, no matter how great! That said: -!

    Let all of us not allow our own 'opinions' to supercede and transcend the Scripture's overall teaching, by taking some verse or phrase out of context. Another quote, but one of which I don't know of whom is the actual author.
    I agree. :thumbsup:

    Ed
     
    #32 EdSutton, Mar 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. Peter never says that the OT Bible writers were "false teachers".
    #2. Peter DOES argue that the OT Bible writer WERE speaking via the Spirit of Christ within them. Thus indicating that the OT text itself is the WORD OF GOD - the TEACHING of Christ not just the NT an not just the NT Apostolic letters.

    The Point remains.

    In Christ,
     
    #33 BobRyan, Mar 23, 2007
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    But some here have you already come out against the truth that the Apostolic letters of the NT like Jude, Paul, Peter are NOT in fact the "teaching of Christ" to the NT saints as HE promised in John 16!!

    True. It is GOD teaching mankind through the accounts of sacred history.

    It is all God's TEACHING - but He doe so by telling us of "accounts" when which more people are speaking that just God.

    Obviously.

    I differ with you on that point - I would argue that they may have been inspired but they certainly are not in the Bible.

    We have a number of examples (as in 1Cor 14) of inspired statements not making it into scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #34 BobRyan, Mar 23, 2007
  15. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    This may be a bit off the subject, but I feel that it is relevant to mention. Inspiration guarantees the truth of the record, but not necessarily the truth of the sentiments expressed in the record.

    For example, the record of what Satan said in Job 1 & 2 is inspired, but his words and sentiments were certainly not.
     
    #35 Pastor_Bob, Mar 23, 2007
  16. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele New Member

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    I think this thread should be locked. The premise under which it was created is false -- and has nothing to do with debating doctrines.

    There is no merit to discussing the premise to this thread at all, let alone in this area of the board.

    I am not Baptist, but I should not have to be in order to be outraged by all this.

    I rarely use red, but DHK does NOT believe that ANY part of Scripture is NOT the Word of God.

    Since this thread imputes motives, I will say that the opening post seems to be a very obvious attempt to twist words and make someone appear to believe something that they do not. I guess that makes it easier to discredit what the person says.

    Even in secular society this is frowned on. In my experience, only in some Church of Christ circles is such behavior ever well-accepted. Mr. Ryan, is that what you want to model yourself along with?

    This thread is nothing more than a personal attack on the basis of a false accusation advanced by deceptive means, done in the most public way arrangeable, in order to advance the thread-creator's argumentative interests.

    I have been thinking since the start of this thread the best way to answer this thread. I have decided that my initial reaction is best.

    This thread is contrary to Ephesians 4:25 "therefore, putting away falsehood, speak ye truth each one with his neighbor" (ASV), and flies in the face of what the Lord will not tolerate in His eternity: "every one that loveth and maketh a lie" (ASV) per Revelation 22:15.

    Nowhere in Scripture is an exception made for `advancing the truth.' God's standards for our conduct are binding at all times.

    Mr. Ryan, you not only deserve disciplinary action by the administrators of this board, but you are in violation of the Lord's commands for conduct. If you cannot `beat' DHK on this board, why not just withdraw in silence, rather than sin against the Lord?

    Because this attack was public, I want to answer it in public. I congratulate DHK for being so gracious in light of what is happening to him. I beg the moderators and site administrators to please put a stop to this. This type of sub-Christian behavior is not consistent with BaptistBoard's values, has no place here, and I believe that should be made clear.
     
    #36 Darron Steele, Mar 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2007
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