Is the Flesh Sinful?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim
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    HP: I have a question not only for DHK but for the list, primarily the ones that agree with these two remarks by DHK. If the flesh is not sinful; in and of itself, and an egg is not sinful in and of itself being material matter, is the sperm of man sinful or can sin be transmitted by it? Why or why not?
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

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    I have a problem with point #1 for this reason.

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    By one man... Wasn't it the woman who disobeyed and ate of the fruit? In Genesis 5:2, we read:

    Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    Called THEIR name Adam. So the Woman, because she was joined to the man and they became one flesh, was also Adam.

    Sin was passed upon all the world because of the woman. And it is passed on to every child born of a woman.

    Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

    Job 25:4 answers the second point as well.
     
  3. DHK

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    If you rightly divide the word of truth (2Tim.2:15), you will note that it is speaking specifically of the sin of Adam. The first Adam is being compared to the second Adam, Jesus. Both are persons.
    No the woman isn't called Adam. You have taken the verse out of context (not unusual for you). Chapter five is a genealogy where the names of men are predominant. Read through the whole chapter and see. It is the names of men that are mentioned. Eve is only mentioned in passing.
    This verse is so taken out of context, and your reasoning is ludicrous.
    First, it is a book written in poetry using figurative language.
    Second, it is an answer by Bildhad the Shuite condemning Job, and telling him why he is in such a bad situation. So you are taking the reasoning of a man who probably isn't even saved and is giving ungodly advice to Job.
    Third, you are ignoring the context. Let's look at it, apply it consistently, and see what the conclusions would be:

    Job 25:4-6 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
    5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
    6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

    If we take a literal approach to this text as you do: that a man born of a woman is not clean, then what shall we conclude from a literal interpretation of verse 6?

    "The son of man, which is a worm"
    Do you actually believe that the son of man (Jesus) is a worm?? I would call that blasphemy, wouldn't you. But you insist on a literal interpretation here. Don't you see the absurdity of your literal interpretation in the Book of Job?
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    If you remove the breath of life, you have only the flesh left. Can it sin??? I think not. God takes our breath and we die. Jesus laid down His life. He had a body liken unto sinful flesh, He also took it up again. We can't do that.


    BBob,
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Jan 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2008
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    Genesis 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

    Nothing out of context at all. The two were one flesh. They were called Adam.

    What is so hard to understand about that?

    It did not give the genealogies first and then say their name was Adam. If it did, I would say you have a good argument. But it does not.
     
  6. Eliyahu

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    Only the Greek illiterates are brave to interpret the men (Anthrowpow) in Romans 5:12 - as meaning male. It is human being!

    man and woman are equally responsible for their offsprings, for their genetics, for any innate deformities etc. Each of them are responsible for 50% of the sin natures.

    Bible says " the Sinful Flesh" " The Sin in the Flesh" ( Romans 8:3)

    Galatians 5:16- talks about the lusts of Flesh, Works of the flesh.

    Flesh is not neutral. Before the FALL, it was sinless, neutral to the sin. ( Neutral means eventually SINLESS)

    Once Adam failed, he had the cookie of the Satan in his flesh and in his mind. That is similar to the cookie of computers. When I turn on the Comp and click BB, I notice Welcome Eliyahu, and I don't need to write down the ID and password. BB recognize my computer. When the sin entered, it destroyed the spirit, soul, and flesh, and thereafter our flesh has carried the cookie of Satan. Our flesh pleases the way of worldly living. Our flesh doesn't like to do the work for the Holy Spirit.( Gal 5). Our brain is a part of the flesh as well which we have inherited from our parents.

    Jesus offered the Sinless Flesh to God for the Sacrifice.

    Our flesh is sinful, but we should not obey it but should follow the Spirit.
     
  7. DHK

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    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren't like Adam's disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.
    I suppose the name "Moses" simply means "human being" as well. You do tend to ignore context don't you?
     
  8. DHK

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    That is all the verse is teaching: that male and female were one flesh. That is what is being taught. As has already been pointed out Adam does mean man. Context is key.
     
  9. Eliyahu

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    You misunderstand the meaning of Sinful here.

    That Flesh is sinful doesn't necessarily need its sinning. Even though the flesh is not sinning, the flesh of the human beings are sinful all the time.
    The nature of it is wicked. Why? Not seeking God is a sin too ( Romans 3-) No connection with God is a sin too. Hamartia( Hatah) means the astray from the target. This is why Bible use the term Sinful Flesh.

    Are we sinners because we committed a sin? or
    Do we commit sins because we are sinners?

    After the FALL, the flesh of Adam became sinful. Before the FALL, the flesh of Adam was sinless though it was weak to the temptation.
    After the FALL, the human flesh became different carrying many results of the sins, having the reduced life time.

    The dead bodies are corruptible, but we will wear incorruptible in the future ( 1 Cor 15)
     
  10. Eliyahu

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    Romans 5 talks about the whole human beings, not only for the males. The reason why Adam ( even Moses) is mentioned there is because Adam represented Eve.

    All human beings were under the sin and reigned by the death.

    So, if anyone claim that Romans 5 teaches the sins are carried forward only thru male, not thru female, it is absolutely wrong.
     
  11. DHK

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    BBob has a better understanding of the definition of "sinful" than you do. Flesh cannot sin. There is no such thing as "sinful flesh" per se. What was made reference to in context was the sin nature. A hunk of meat put on a slab is not sinful is it?

    I have a friend who collects fossils--the remains of the ancient dead. She sees nothing sinful in those bones.

    A member in our church works in the morgue, among the "recent dead" taking autopsies. She sees nothing sinful in what she sees. It is flesh. But she can't see the sin. :rolleyes: There is none to see.

    My sister works with the police in forensics. She observes and examines the remains of both the "ancient" and the "recent" dead. She sees nothing sinful in either. Flesh is flesh. Bone is bone. There is nothing sinful in flesh, per se.

    (I sure hope "sinful flesh" isn't contagious) :laugh:
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    How come the Bible says " the Sinful Flesh" in Romans 8:3? Was the Bible wrong?
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    When the Flesh is alive, the sin is alive. But when the Flesh is dead, the sin is paid for the price by death.

    That is why the wages of the sin is the death ( Romans 6:23). If the flesh is dead, then the wages of the sin is already paid. Therefore there is found no sin !

    However, if the flesh is alive, the sin is working.

    You lack the understanding of the fundamental truth here.

    The Price for the Sins is the Death and therefore the Flesh of Jesus had to experience the Death on behalf of us even though His flesh didn't have to die.

    Didn't you know this Truth? You guys are far away from the Truth ! Millions like you guys cannot make the Truth because the Truth is not manufactured by human brains.
     
    #13 Eliyahu, Jan 29, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  14. BobRyan

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    Your "skin" is not sinful. Your "fingernail" is not sinful. But your fallen nature includes in it the Romans 7 principle "SIN IN me waging war with the law of my mind".

    And the good news is - this evil propensity to sin - will be removed at glorification as part of the benefits of the Gospel -- thanks to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    Nothing to complain about -- something to be happy about.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. annsni

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    So, saved or unsaved, the wages have been paid and all is peachy? I do recall the verse saying "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23). Apparently that's not speaking of death of the body because we ALL will die regardless of whether there is still sin or not and if the person is saved or not. The two verses before this states "What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. " Death is the natural result of being a human but the death in this passage is speaking of the death of the soul as opposed to eternal life for the soul.
     
  16. Eliyahu

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    You revealed another wrong idea again.

    Who is free from Sin?

    Even after the Salvation, after the being born again, we still commit sins ( 1 John 1:8-9) and we continue this until our death. Moreover, our flesh still carries the sin nature all the time until the death.

    The body of Jesus had no sin, and therefore deserved no death at all, but died for our sins. However His flesh cannot be corrupted because His Flesh was not sinful at all. By the death of Jesus Christ, the price for the sins of the Flesh has been paid Once For ALL.

    Death is all related to the sins.
     
  17. annsni

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    Oh?

    According to what you posted above:

    " If the flesh is dead, then the wages of the sin is already paid. Therefore there is found no sin !"

    So when we die, sin is no longer and everyone gets to heaven. Is that what you're saying? It sure seems it!
     
  18. TCGreek

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    1. "A hunk of flesh" is not in itself sinful. This has been proven over and over again.

    2. So Paul is not here speaking of literal flesh, which has no sin. What then is Paul speaking of?

    3. "Sinful flesh" then is a reference to lost humanity and the Son being sent in the likeness of "sinful flesh," is only a reference His external form, like those in "sinful flesh."

    4. The rest of us are "sinful flesh" because of a sin nature, but "sinful flesh" is theological and should be understood that way. Paul is not referring to a "hunk of flesh on a table."
     
  19. trustitl

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    Eliyahu
    The body of Jesus had no sin, and therefore deserved no death at all, but died for our sins. However His flesh cannot be corrupted because His Flesh was not sinful at all. By the death of Jesus Christ, the price for the sins of the Flesh has been paid Once For ALL.


    Jesus came in corruptible flesh. He was aging. He got sick. Not because of his sin, but because Adam sinned and was removed from the Tree of Life. Since then all flesh, including Jesus", is subject to corruption and death. The wages of sin is physical death. If Jesus' flesh was not subject to corruption he wasn't a man like you and me. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

    Flesh is "sinful" not because it sins, but rather because it has it's own set of lusts that have no concern for the will of God. It wants to be a certain temperature, have a full stomach, and feel certain impulses through it's nervous system. Those lusts are not interested in "godliness". Christ had all the temptations to live according to the flesh that we have. Thankfully he chose to not live in accord with them, hence he did not sin.


    Who is free from sin? Me and any other person made alive unto God (Rom. 6:11)
     
  20. cowboymatt

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    Read carefully in Genesis 3 at the punishments give out to Adam and Eve; where is it stated that sin would be passed down in their flesh?

    Read Romans 5 carefully and you don't see that sin is passed down but that death is. Death and sin are different.

    Read Romans 8 carefully and you get the picture of Jesus being like us and because he was like us he condemded sin in the flesh. Jesus had our flesh and despite this still accomplised his work of reconciliation.

    Read James 1 and the idea is clear that sin is our fault, not our flesh's fault. As has been stated several times in several ways, sin requires will. No will, no sin.

    So flesh is not sinful, simple as that.
     

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