Is the OT Binding on us Today?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TCGreek, Jul 19, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

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    I grew up hearing that the OT and the Old Covenant are the same and therefore not binding on us today? But over the years, I have come to realize:

    1. The OT and the Old Covenant are not the same.

    2. Rather, the Old Covenant is recorded in the OT.

    3. And that the OT is binding on us today in principle (Rom 15:4).

    4. So Paul is not referring to the NT primarily in 2 Tim 2:16, 17 but the OT primarily.

    5. What do you believe about the OT?
     
  2. Cutter

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    Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    The OT was "written for our learning"

    not to bind us, but as Paul states in Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    :24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    :25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    The OT was our schoolmaster and as Paul states in verse 25 we are no longer under the schoolmaster. In the same breathe we must accept the gravity of the words and lessons taught in the OT.
    1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. :18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. :19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     
  3. J. Jump

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    Every doctrine in the NT can be found in type in the OT. That is one of the checks against man-made interpreation. If you can find it in the NT you must also be able to find it in the OT.

    That's another reason why baptism is not required for eternal salvation. There is no type in the OT to be found. That's why eternal salvation is via the death and shed blood of the substitute (in our case The Substitute), because that is the only types we have in the OT, proving Lordship salvation to be a false doctrine.

    The list could go on and on.
     
  4. Dale-c

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    This is a topic that needs more study from me.
    My current position based on limited study is that all the laws of the OT not done away with in the NT are still valid.
    I think we can eat pork if we like, but we should still honor the sabath (on Sunday now of course)
    As to what all we should and should not do from the OT, I would not venture a guess, but it is good for consideration.
     
  5. Dale-c

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    The Lutheran's would disagree with you about that as they say circumcision was the OT form of Baptism.
    Hard to prove.
     
  6. TCGreek

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    Can we leave the Lordship discussion out of this one? There are 2 to 3 threads running now on the Lordship debate. Let them take care of that. Please, don't incite any controversy.

    The question at hand is whether or not the OT is binding on us.
     
  7. TCGreek

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    Shouldn't we make a distinction between the OT and the Old Covenant? Or you do not see a difference? I am only being curious, not contentious at all.
     
  8. Cutter

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    JJump quote,
    "That's another reason why baptism is not required for eternal salvation. There is no type in the OT to be found."

    Although I agree baptism is not required for eternal salvation there is a type in the OT. The flood was a water baptism of the earth. Just as the earth has experienced the water baptism it shall also experience the baptism by fire.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    :19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    :20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    :21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    :22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
     
  9. Jeep Dragon

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    This kind of seems to relieve the dietary laws and the Sabbath. It seems like most people are quick to excuse the dietary laws and quick to claim bindings to the sabbath. Realize that all the laws and the ten commandments were written to the Jews.

    Instead of cherry picking OT laws that one thinks applies to us and which ones do not, try making an easy assumption: all OT laws were written to the Jews and do not apply to us today.
    Now before you think I'm a heretic, think about what the NT says. Most of the Ten Commandments were regurgitated in a similar fashion by Jesus or Paul which either put more meaning to them or turned them into a guideline to take to one's inner heart instead of some sort of mindless check-list ordinance of obedience.

    Of the Ten Commandments, nine of them were reiterated, the one about the Sabbath was reiterated as quoted above as more of a privilege rather than a bondage.

    No where in Scripture is the Sabbath moved to Sunday. That is a result of a tradition to have church gatherings to celebrate Jesus' resurrection (not the Sabbath).

    All other OT laws were nailed to the cross. Peter was shown symbolically that he could eat unclean animals by ministering to the Gentiles. Paul said that while he was in Rome he will do as the Romans. We no longer sacrifice animals. The tithe laws, which were spelled out in great detail in Deuteronomy were annulled in Hebrews 7-8.

    Instead of living in confusion as to which OT laws we have to live under realize that God is not the author of confusion. For something this important, He would have explained this to us. Just assume that all the OT laws do not apply by default, then look to the New Testament to see what principles were either added or reiterated from the OT.
     
  10. TCGreek

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    1. A well-reasonsed response.

    2. But is there a difference between the OT and the Old Covenant? You have not answered that question.
     
  11. Jeep Dragon

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    Isn't the Old Testament and the Old Covenant the same thing? Testament = Covenant. Right?
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    Free

    Mark 12:The Greatest Commandment
    28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

    29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[Or the Lord our God is one Lord] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[Deut. 6:4,5] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[Lev. 19:18]There is no commandment greater than these."

    32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

    34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

    Luke 10:
    29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

    30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

    36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

    37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
    Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

    Romans 13
    Love, for the Day is Near
    8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deut. 5:17-19,21] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[Lev. 19:18] 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Romans 12:
    Love
    9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

    14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.[Or willing to do menial work] Do not be conceited.

    17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[Or willing to do menial work]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
    "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
    In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[Prov. 25:21,22] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Romans 14:
    11It is written:
    " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
    'every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will confess to God.' "[Isaiah 45:23] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[Or that nothing] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

    Galatians 5:
    13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[Or the flesh; also in verses 16, 17, 19 and 24]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[Lev. 19:18] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    Hebrews 7:
    18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

    Romans 3 :
    19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
     
  13. TCGreek

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    1. In the OT, the Hebrew word for covenant is berit, which is first mentioned in Genesis 6:18 in reference to Noah. Then we see berit in reference to Abraham, Gen.15:18.

    2. But the two most theologically charged uses of apart from Noah and Abrahamberit are Exodus 19:5; Deut. 5:2-5 and then Jeremiah 31:31ff, prophecy of a new covenant.

    3. Exodus 19:5 and Deut.5:2-5 are making reference to that covenant with the Jews who came out of Egypt. It is not the same covenant that God made with Noah or Abraham (Deut.5:2, 3). So there is a clear difference here.

    4. In the NT, there is only one word that is translated "covenant" or "testament," diatheke.

    a. It is used of the covenant of circumcision given to Abraham (Acts 7:8).

    b. It is used of covenants among men in general (Gal.3:15).

    c. It is used of the NT covenant (Matt.26:28).

    d. It is used of the Old covenant (Hebs 8:13ff, a quote from Jeremiah 31:31ff).

    5. This is where context defines meaning. The covenant God made with Noah, even though berit is used, is not the same covenant he made with Abraham, even though it is the same word.

    6. Moses says that the covenant God made his the Jews at Mt. Sinai was not made with their fathers. Therefore, we cannot conclude that the OT and the Old covenant are the same.

    7. Rather, the Old Covenant is recorded in the Old Testament.

    8. Notice that the prophets always tried to bring the Jews back to the Torah.
     
  14. TCGreek

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    Now explain to us what all those quotes mean in light of the question, Is the OT binding on us today?
     
  15. EdSutton

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    Yes! It depends on how you are defining the two terms, actually.

    Ed
     
    #15 EdSutton, Jul 20, 2007
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  16. EdSutton

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    Ya' noticed that too, huh??
    Bingo! As a Gentile, they are in no way, nor were they ever 'binding' on me. Then I never had 'em; Now, I wouldn't have 'em. Or as I have said in another way:As to keeping the law - as an unsaved Gentile, I could not 'keep it' if I would; now as a saved member of the body of Christ, I would not 'keep it', if I could!

    What absolutely amazes me is that exactly as you have written below, we wanna' selectively "cherry-pick" 'em.

    You have hit the nail dead center with your head, I believe, except I would change exactly one sentence, you posted, with these words, viz;

    "All OT laws were nailed to the cross." Ther are no 'laws' in the OT that are not a part of the Mosaic law, and that (The Mosaic Law or in other words, the "Old covenant") is precisely that, that was nailed to the cross, by Jesus, Himself!

    Why do we seem so determined to "yank 'em down" from where He nailed them, as though what Christ, Himself did was somehow misguided?? Again, this absolutely amazes me.

    Why would anyone want to live out in the wilderness with Hagar and Ishmael, burning up with heat, starving, athirst, and sleeping under the bushes on the rocks, waiting to die, when they can dwell and live, under the oaks at Mamre, in the tents with Sarah and Isaac, with all the accompanying riches and benefits? :confused:

    Ed
     
    #16 EdSutton, Jul 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2007
  17. EdSutton

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    I'm a little slow, this morning, but exactly what are you driving at, here??

    Ed
     
  18. Dale-c

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    I believe there is but will have to study more before I will be dogmatic.
     
  19. Jkdbuck76

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    Well of course it's binding!
    I keep plenty of rocks around to stone people outside
    the city and the bloody sacrifices at the temple complex
    continue.:laugh:

    But seriously. I see the OT as a collection of books.
    The OC is not a single covenant, but a few (Abrahamic,
    Davidic, Palestenian, Mosaic......). So as far as I am concerned,
    there is a difference between the OT and the OC.
     
    #19 Jkdbuck76, Jul 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2007
  20. psalms109:31

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    Scripture

    It is this way from the day men wanted to put thier two cents in with the word of God.

    They agree with those who agree with them and don't agree with those who don't. Instead of having faith in the word of God and place His word in our life and see what God can do.

    Galatians 5:
    13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[Or the flesh; also in verses 16, 17, 19 and 24]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[Lev. 19:18] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
     

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