Is The Papacy Threatened?

So that is your 'proof'. Someones opinion. Just stating it is so over and over doesn't make it a historical fact.

You have no historical proof that Baptists existed before the Reformation, do you?

 

<<<Who did the Popish church persecute and kill during its reformation (Not the Reformation)? These victims were called heretics, and in some areas of profane history some of those heretical doctrines are mentioned. Those heretical doctrines happen to image baptistic beliefs.>>>

Yes, the REAL church went underground to protect the truth. These people refused to baptize their babies and insisted that believers be re-baptized once they came to the knowledge of the truth. This was a red flag for the papists. They called them heretics and burned them at the stake. Many were told that if they would acknowledge the pope as head of the church, they would be spared. Many died rather than accept the heretical papacy.

I follow the same beliefs and teachings that they followed. I am a true believer in saved by grace, not by works, one way to Heaven, through Jesus, the veil of the temple tore in two when He died, and I no longer need a priest - I believe in the priesthood of believers. I can go direct to God because of Jesus.

And we are ALL sinners. Yes, all priests, all bishops, all archbishops, all cardinals, all popes are sinners too, all need the saving grace of Jesus Christ. All Baptist preachers are sinners too. All need the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

 

I put the direct links on the post themseleves for you to look at. Just click on them.

 

i don't buy it for a second...Christ promised to protect His Church from the gates of Hell...the Church didn't have to hide underground...it's a lie...take the Orthodox Church...many are under Islamic rule and are persecuted to this very hour...are they in hiding? yet they survive...take the Russian Orthodox church under Communism...how many Orthodox Christians...Bishops, priests and laymen lost their lives (thousands!!!)? Yet the Russian Church survived without hiding underground...

where do people come up with this "underground" theory?

In XC
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The official Russian religion thing always bothered me especially with incidents previous to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic where the Czar family was scandalized by Rasputin. I've had an Orthodox priest tell me that there are certain saints that have died but not decayed and smell like roses. I would like to see that!
However, I have to agree with you about the "underground theory". Reading history its clear that even "underground" groups have enough writen material to anounce their existance. You just don't have this with baptist as far back as the landmarkist suppose. On the other hand, there was an early emergence of baptist in Wales and prior to the reformation.

 

Actually, they come up with it from the believers that actually lived through those times. In countries such as Albania, the underground church was the believing church.

In some communist countries, there was a limited freedom to have churches. In Romania, they were free to have church but they could only train a limited number of people in the government sanctioned seminary. This meant that many pastors were involved in 6-8 churches each week.

There were churches who operated above ground. Some of them were owned and pastored by gov't agents. Some were not. You really ought to read some of Brother Andrew's books.

 

And see there exist literature proving the existance of such. And thus the discrepency. Where is the literature for the underground church in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, centuries?

 

And there is ample writen evidence of such proving their existence. How many have seen the Hidding Place? But we don't have such evidence during the first 3 centuries.

 

There is ample records showing that many - not all - Baptists in Germany under Hitler supported what he was doing.

So yes, some Baptists were among the ones throwing Jews into the gas chambers.

 

At first the Lutheran Church in Germany supported Hitler. When they realized his true nature it was to late. And there was no great love for the Jews in the US. As a kid My Old Man got beat up by "Christian" kids every Easter.

 

Personally, I would think that Christians were hunted down during the 1st - 3rd centuries as ample proof that the church didn't operate openly everywhere. I know you're not doubting that persecution and martyrdom really happened. But wouldn't the corollary be that they didn't make it easy for Nero and the other Caesars to capture them?

If I am not mistaken the catacombs are filled with Christian symbols such as the fish that most historians take as places where believers met secretly and quietly.

 

It's a horrible stain on their reputation and to the secular world, it's a stain on Christianity, because when the secular world considers Christianity the largest Christian church in existence is the first thing that comes to mind. But we must remember the media is largely secular and the secular world hates the cause of Christ. They delight in publishing stories that embarrass Christ's church and this scandal has given them enough to write about for a long time.

Because the Catholic Church is so large, it is a particuarly easy target. But other churches are not immune to this kind of treatment by the press. In the area where I live the Catholic Church is small and marginalized and the Baptist Church is the 800 pound gorilla. We never have a local story about scandal in our Catholic parish because they are too small to create much scandal. But when a Baptist preacher gets arrested for tax evasion, or a Baptist church splits and the controversy winds up in court, or the local Baptist association shows up to oppose a local option initiative, the press is all over it. It will be headline news and for the same reason the Catholic scandal is getting so much worldwide press. The media hates the cause of Christ and will do everything it can to make His people look bad.

 

I believe this is an accurate and fair assessment of the situation.