Is the Pope commiting Apostasy?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Sherrie, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Not sure about this, would this be a form of Apostasy? Is the Pope commiting Apostasy?

    This is an honest question. I am not trying to trick anyone. I have some true questions about this, and would love to read what others have to say first.

    Sherrie
     
  2. Johnv

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    You won't get an unbiased answer here.

    If you're anti-catholic, you're gonna say "yes". If you're not, you're gonna say no.

    Since I'm neither pro- nor anti-, I'm gonna say "probably not any more or less than the average pastor".
     
  3. Tentmaker

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    Not only comitting, he is an apostate . All one needs for confirmation is to listen to him for five minutes, or read any of his writings. His very office stands in opposition to God's Word.
     
  4. Harald

    Harald
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    From the first "Pope" (meaning "Father") ever to the present one the Papacy or Pope dynasty has been the Antichrist with capital A, i.e. the man of sin, cp. 2 Thess 2.

    Harald
     
  5. TheOliveBranch

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    Apostate, yes. Antichrist, no. According to the Bible, the Antichrist will lead many astray. The Catholic Church seems to be having a few problems with followers these days. And the pope sure doesn't seem to have the spunk that it will take to convince very many more people. A future pope? Who knows. They tend to always get involved with the wrong crowd.
     
  6. romanbear

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    Hi Sherri; [​IMG]
    The Pope is called holy father.There is only one Holy Father and that Is Yahwey or Jehovah God.Christ said to call no man Father except your Holy Father.The Pope teaches an apostate religon in that they teach there congregation to pray and ask Mary to influnce Christ.Hence the hail Mary's. This is the same type of thing that Soloman did when he tried to contact a dead prophet.The dead are dead and can't here you. Not only this they also teach that she Mary is the Holy Mother of God.While I have to admit that she was the mother of the physical body of Jesus.She is not the Holy Mother of God. Jesus' dieity exsisted since before the beginning and could not have been mothered by Mary.So this is an out right lie.They teach that if your are not Catholic you are going to HELL.This also is an out right lie.They teach a different Jesus.The real Jesus' When He died on the cross for our sins paid the sin debt in full.When we believe on Him we are saved and no church not even Baptist can save you.Catholics are not Christian they are Catholics.Ask one some time if they are Christian let them answer and ask if the church saves them.There are a lot of nice people who are Catholic we should tell them the truth.The thing that makes it hard is that they are also taught that only the priest can explain scripture so they are deceived in to believing lies.All we can do Sherri is plant the seed as often as it takes. Some will be saved out of the Catholic church this is why we should never give up on them.
    Romanbear
    Peace [​IMG]
     
  7. Sherrie

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    I found an article I would like to share. I also placed it below in the other religion forum.

    http://www.reachingcatholics.org/eternal.html

    Why does the Pope think that only he has the ability to talk with God, and God will give him all the answers, when scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach us. That the Holy Spirit will go to the Father and tell us all that he hears.

    Why then do people not see the contradictions. The pope says he is infallable (Infallable" means to be "perfect") in his decisions of matters of faith and morals for the universal church.

    Yet he leads people to believe in false hope.

    Sherrie
     
  8. rufus

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    Sherrie, thanks for the post and calling attention to the truth that anyone who departs from the truths of God's word is heretical if not full blown apostate.

    RCC's are not the only ones following a false system: It would do us all good to check our beliefs and practices at the DOOR of BIBLICAL TRUTH!

    Rufus [​IMG]
     
  9. Bro. Curtis

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    Amen to that, Rufus.
     
  10. g_1933

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    Second that Rufus!
     
  11. Johnv

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    It would do us all good to check our beliefs and practices at the DOOR of BIBLICAL TRUTH!

    Amen!!! Let us remove the logs from our own eyes to better remove the specks from our brothers'. Lest we are sinless, we should not cast stones.
     
  12. romanbear

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    Bro Adam;

    If what you say is true then. Why didn't Christ ever call Mary mother.He called her woman.I will admit that Mary is blessed among women, but she is not the Mother of God.While I truly respect her as an instrument of God....Catholic doctrine teaches lies and your defense is not standing up very well.To pray to Mary to influence her Son is necromancy.She is dead and we cannot pray to saints.It is also having other God's before Him.Because prayer is worship in it's most profound way.To hold Mary up as anything holy is not Biblical and anything that is not Biblical is heresy.No matter what the Pope says.The thing I find that really disturbs me is that.There are more catholic shrines to Mary than to Jesus the ratio is about 10 times more.As far as being careful why would I want to be careful about the Catholic doctrine since it is man made and is a heresy.An enemy of the millions of Christian who have die at the hands of the Catholic doctrine for not submitting to It's Popes.The Catholic doctrine is not a Christian doctrine it is a anti Christian doctrine.Catholics are deceived by there priest in to thinking that priest have some kind of power from God.to be able to pray them out of purgatory another unbiblical teaching.to grant indulgences in sin.The Catholic government seeks to dominate the world.It considers Islam as having the same God as Christians,in order to bring the worlds religions under one roof.I fear only God and truth is not in the Catholic doctrine

    Romanbear
     
  13. Helen

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    God as a triune nature has existed forever, and in around about 0-4 AD, God the Son came to the world, clothed in full humanity. You cannot seperate God in his humanity from God in his Divinity.


    Yes I can.

    And now Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
    John 17:5

    The humanity was added. The divinity was/is eternal.
     
  14. Rick Sr.

    Rick Sr.
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    Tell'em Romanbear...Rick Sr. [​IMG]
     
  15. Johnv

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    To pray to Mary to influence her Son is necromancy.

    What about asking others to pray for us to influence Jesus? Is that not also wrong? I don't think the issue is whether a person has gone to be with the Lord, or still on earth. It's whether it's appropriate to ask others to pray for us.
     
  16. Caretaker

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    Catholic Catechism

    816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
    The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268


    824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294


    "Outside the Church there is no salvation"

    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336


    882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
    883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


    The Greek word used for rock (petra) is played against Peter (petros). Some use this passage to teach that Peter was the foundation stone of the church, that he had a primacy among the apostles, and that he became bishop of Rome. The verse will scarcely bear the first of these propositions, and certainly none of the others. Peter may be meant by the rock, but he was not the exclusive foundation.
    The twelve-fold foundation of the apostles of the church:

    Ephesians 2:
    19
    Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20
    And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21
    In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22
    In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Rev. 21:
    14
    And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    This seems borne out by the fact that the words spoken unto Peter in Matt. 16:18, were spoken to all of the disciples in Matt. 18:

    Matt. 18:
    18
    Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    19
    Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
    20
    For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    The rock or foundation of the church is the confession (ultimately the doctrine) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church.

    The word church (Greek ekklesia), means literally “ a chosen or called out assembly”. Thus the use of the word as a technical term for an assembly or group of believers in Christ was quite natural. It was not viewed as an external organization, denomination, or hierarchical system. The New Testament Church is a local autonomous congregation or an assembly which is a church in and of itself. John writes to 7 churches, in His Revelation, not to one.

    Scofield commentary:

    16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    Peter
    There is the Greek a play upon the words, "thou art Peter petros-- literally 'a little rock', and upon this rock Petra I will build my church." He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us

    (1 Peter 2:4-9)
    2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone--rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God--
    2:5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
    2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected-- this One has become the cornerstone, and
    2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.
    2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, so that you may proclaim the praises of the One who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

    church:

    2 (Greek - ajpovllumi (ek=="out of," kaleo =="to call"), an assembly of called out ones). The word is used of any assembly; the word itself implies no more, as, e.g., the town-meeting at Ephesus Acts 19:39 and Israel, called out of Egypt and assembled in the wilderness Acts 7:38. Israel was a true "church," but not in any sense the N.T. church--the only point of similarity being that both were "called out" and by the same God. All else is contrast.

    Following are several of the doctrinal statements made on Justification at the council of Trent. After each Canon are scriptures that contradict that Canon.

    Finally, you will see the word "anathema" used many times by the Council. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of this Council are cursed. In Gal. 1:8-9, the word "anathema" is used. The curse must come from God. Therefore, we conclude that according to Roman Catholicism, anyone who disagrees with the following Canons are cursed of God. The Roman Catholic church excommunicates those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the Christian church. Being outside the church means you are not saved.

    In spite of what Catholicism states, the Bible speaks differently. Following each Canon is a list of appropriate scriptures countering the Catholic position.

    1. CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

    "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20).
    B. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).
    C. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
    D. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
    E. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
    F. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8).
    G. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5).

    2. CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
    .
    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12).
    A. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3:28).
    B. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
    C. "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself" (Heb. 7:25-27).
    D. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" (2 Tim. 1:12).

    3. Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
    .
    "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" (Rom. 4:3).
    A. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).

    4. Canon 23: "lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,- except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema."
    .
    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
    A. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
    B. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
    C. "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:21).
    D. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19).
    E. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God" (1 John 5:13).
    ·
    Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

    . "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
    A. "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:1-3).
    ·
    Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

    . "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 5:1).
    A. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col. 2:13-14).

    · Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
    . This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.


    While the apostasy of Rome wrested power for the papacy, and established the monarchy falsely using Peter's name, there was a group of believers following the only true head of the Church, the Lord Jesus Christ. These were the Baptists, and prior to the reformation, horrificly persecuted by Rome's bloody corruption.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  17. neal4christ

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    Boy, this is embarrassing guys! Why can't you see what the Catholic Church really teaches and then deal with the issues from there, rather than using half-truths as absolute truths. Discussion of this nature would be much more fruitful if people dealt with the real issues, not ones in their heads.

    Neal
     
  18. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Go for it Neal...enlighten us.

    Sherrie [​IMG]
     
  19. Harald

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    The inspired apostle Paul did separate or distinguish between Christ's humanity from His Divine nature or Deity, cp. Rom. 1:3-4. Did Paul do wrong?

    Harald
     
  20. Sherrie

    Sherrie
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    Bro. Adam,

    When they say church, do you think the term was meant to imply "Church", as in the body of Christ. You know, Jesus is that Church. And they are confused and think it is the Catholic Church?

    Sherrie
     

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