Is the Pope Emergent?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SolaSaint, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint
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  2. Tom Bryant

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    Who knows. Have you ever seen either Bell or McLaren in the same room with the Pope?

    :tongue3:
     
  3. Walter

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    The pope did not say that truth is relative, but that we each have our own vision of the good and the true. That happens to be true. It is also true that we can meet at those points where our faith touches their lack of faith, which is pretty much ethical concerns. Is that evangelism? The beginnings of it, maybe, though not the whole.

    This is not unlike Pope Benedict commenting that for a male prostitute to use a condom might be the first step toward a morality. The sex-drenched American media turned it into “POPE APPROVES CONDOMS!!!” Ummmm…. no.

    I just read a more full statement of “proslytism”:

    “The Church, Benedict XVI told us, does not grow through proselytism, it grows through attraction, through witness. And when the people see this witness of humility, of meekness, of mildness, they feel the need that the Prophet Zachariah spoke of: ‘We want to come with you.’ The people feel that need in the face of the witness of charity, of this humble charity, without bullying, not sufficient, humble. Worship and serve!”

    SolaSaint, it may be a good idea next time to make sure you understand the sense of what you find offensive; its nuances and its context, both in the instant moment and in harmony with what has been said previously, before you rip it loose from its meaning to put your own stamp on it. “And here I am. The Pope comes in and shakes my hand, and we sit down. The Pope smiles and says: “Some of my colleagues who know you told me that you will try to convert me.”

    “It’s a joke, I tell him. My friends think it is you want to convert me.
    He smiles again and replies: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.”

    Clearly the remark ‘Proselytism is solemn nonsense.’ was nothing but casual banter between two powerful men who *don’t* know each other, but who are setting off in that direction and was intended by the Pope specifically and only for the atheist in front of him, who he knows he must get to know before he can even *think* of converting him.

    There is no reason not to think he is joking when he says “Proselytism is solemn nonsense…” unless you’re a Protestant with a chip on his shoulder and an agenda to support. Then you can engage in your own brand of ‘solemn nonsense’ and take yet another protestant pot-shot.

    The Pope has already said, when he was vilified by Catholics for saying we need to tone down our emphasis on sexual sins, we must treat the wounds first, then bring them to Jesus. Never, at any time, then or now, did he ever say, or come close to saying, the need to get to know someone throws Jesus under the bus.
     
    #3 Walter, Oct 2, 2013
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  4. DHK

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    This is only part of the article that I read today:
    http://www.worthynews.com/top/washi...nalist-2013-10-01-9e7a6790-2acb-11e3-97a3-ff/
    The article continues.

    The Pope seems to be relativistic, willing to dialogue with atheists and similar secular religions, leaves his people in question as to where the real truth lies, delves into mysticism, seeks for the truth in dreams and visions,


    “I closed my eyes and I no longer had any anxiety or emotion. At a certain point I was filled with a great light.” he said.



    “Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is good . . . Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.


    The problem with such relativistic and mystic statements such as this is simply that there is no authoritative guideline. "Each of has a vision of good and evil," he says. What if my vision of good is robbing a bank and becoming rich.
    No, the Bible is our authority, is not a vision, and sets forth for us in absolute terms that we can plainly understand what is right and what is wrong. That is our authority--not visions of good and evil...or what others "think is good." What they THINK is good, is irrelevant. "their own idead of good and evil" is irrelevant. What the Bible says is not. It is our standard.

    This pope has left dogma, embraced both relativism (like humanism and the New Age), as well as mysticism.
     
    #4 DHK, Oct 2, 2013
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  5. Revmitchell

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    I don't know what he is other than extremely liberal. He said elsewhere that the church needed to quit talking about abortion as it was not the most important issue out there.

    Uh excuse me but slaughtering unborn children in the womb doesn't get any more important. Any religious leader who thinks such a thing is not worth the air they breath.
     
  6. Walter

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    You won't get an argument out of me as to the importance of speaking out against abortion. But let's look at what he ACTUALLY said:

    "I see the church as a field hospital after battle. It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars! You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else. Heal the wounds, heal the wounds…. And you have to start from the ground up. The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds."

    Note the order here. The first and most important message of the Church is to preach Christ as savior. If people do not believe in God and in their need for Christ’s grace, they will not listen to Christ’s moral message either.

    Then the Church must extend Christ's mercy, pursing neither a discouraging legalism nor a soft-headed compassion which pretends that sin does not exist. The confessor who pretends that a sin is not a sin is not doing the sinner any favors. He duty is to compassionately help heal spiritual wounds, not pretend that they do not exist. Pope Francis emphasizes the missionary duty of the Church
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    What he said was dealing with the poor was more important. Imagine that.
     
  8. Walter

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    Errrr, no. What he said was what is most important is the proclamation of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Read the quote I provided.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Uh no that is only part but what he suggested is to stop talking about abortion.
     
  10. DHK

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    The "how to get there" was nothing short of heretical.
    "Mysticism" has no place in Biblical Christianity.
    Neither does relativism for that matter.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/w...ls-bureaucracy-of-church-as-insular.html?_r=0

    Really the most serious evils in the world? Not hardly.
     
  12. KJVRICH

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    ...........
     
    #12 KJVRICH, Oct 2, 2013
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  13. Yeshua1

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    Which Jesus saved you though, and how did he save you?

    The Gospel and Jesus of the RCC does not save sinners, so what was the pope referring to?
     
  14. SolaSaint

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    AMEN Brother!!!!!
     
  15. steaver

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    Walter, who is the pope speaking to when he says "The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you"

    Christ has only saved those who are following Him.
     
  16. Walter

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    Do you understand ‘tone down our emphasis?’ His point is, telling people they’re sinners for openers isn’t working. He thinks we should try to understand their problems first, to understand the realities of their lives and try to help them to a better life before we discuss the need for repentance with them. He comes from a country where people scrounge around garbage dumps for something to eat; who would give anything to eat the scraps from your table. I understand his point perfectly.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    We do not tone down the slaughter of unborn children. Sad that has to be explained.
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    Jesus saves those who know Him as their Lord and Saviour!
     
  19. steaver

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    Yes, that too :thumbs:
     
  20. Walter

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    I don't see the pope implying universal salvation here. He's suggesting that the whole world and everyone in it has been redeemed by His blood, but not implying that everyone is saved. Those who repent of their sins and turn to Jesus Christ will be saved. The pope was not suggesting that all of them WILL do so, or will be saved.

    It is exactly because of the Pope’s ‘loose, imprecise speech’ that we are here debating what he said. If his words were precise and exact, their meaning would not be in question for just about everyone who’s paying attention. After several months in office, and several misinterpreted interviews (Pope—“Who am I to Judge?”) it remains to be seen how the man will swing in the long run. If he is actually liberal in his theology, it will become evident in time. I say, give him more time. If he is orthodox, he will realize that he needs to be more precise in his expressions. If not, he will eventually show his errors.

    I am sure that the pope would love to convert this atheist. I think he is trying to enter into culture of this atheist, to meet him where he is, and to find a chink through which the atheist might be reached. The atheist already comes guarded against “hearing,” in any real way, religious speech of the usual sort.
     
    #20 Walter, Oct 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2013

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