"Is the 'Purpose Driven Methodology' scriptural?"

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bro. James, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. Bro. James

    Bro. James
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    Let us chase this rabbit with the Bible-- using the Gospel that Apostle Paul preached: "Jesus Christ and Him crucified."
    i.e. Where is the shed blood of Jesus applied in the PD methodology?
     
  2. blackbird

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    I try not to get caught up in the latest "fad" book of "How to's"! Folks get on a roller coaster--go for a ride---get off and the first thing they want to do is---find themselves another roller coaster that is longer, faster, twisty-er than the one they just got off of.

    The Apostle Paul told his buddy, Timothy to

    (1) Preach the word, in and out of season

    and

    (2) Do the work of an Evangelist

    That was long before Warren was even in diapers!!
     
  3. gb93433

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    75 percent of the people at Saddleback came to Christ through that ministry. Wouldn't you call that evangelism? Quite the opposite of most churches. Most churches make the claim that 80 percent of their new memebrs come from other churches.

    Didn't Jesus reach the lost and train His disciples?
     
  4. Bro. James

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    I am the author not the moderator; however, I believe the question on the floor is: "Where is the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ applied in the PD methodology?

    May we stay focused on a specific question?

    Selah,
    Bro. James
     
  5. gb93433

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    PD is exactly that--a methodology. It is not the gospel or anything else. The gospel is the good news found in 1 Cor. 15. But that is not all of scripture. The gospel is not the entire Bible. But when one teaches he must teach the whole counsel of God. When I make disciples I am teaching them more than the gospel. I am training them as Jesus did with His disciples to follow Him. Part of following Him is the gospel but other parts are things like holiness, giving, making disciples, evangelism, etc.

    If you go to the conference at Saddleback you will soon learn that PD is much more than just a book or a methodology. What I found out personally is that I interpreted the book in the traditional way like most do. But when I heard him speak I viewed the book in a much different way. Personally it helped me a lot. I think he helped me to see some things I was missing. I was critical of him before I went. But not now. Evrytime I think about the hard work he did to get that church going I think every critic ought to be required to start a church. If they did they would soon find out how much hard work and dedication and trust in God it takes. Starting a church is very demanding.

    If you are not around people you will never win them to Christ. Evangelism is not about Rick Warren but about Christ. Warren started that church by faith without any help. He and his wife came by faith and started sharing their faith. They did not have enough money to pay their first month's rent. He worked hard. He won people to Christ. How many Christians do you know like that?

    If you read the History of Spurgeon he was viewed much the same way. He was criticized for many of the same things. Spurgeon was viewed as being to contemporary as well. But so was Jesus viewed with contempt.
     
  6. WallyGator

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    Well said, gb
    WallyGator [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Psalm145 3

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    Feeding Sheep or Amusing Goats?

    by C. H. Spurgeon

    AN EVIL IS IN THE PROFESSED CAMP of the Lord, so gross in its impudence, that the most short-sighted can hardly fail to notice it. During the past few years it has developed at an abnormal rate, even for the evil. It has worked like leaven until the whole lump ferments. The devil has seldom done a cleverer thing than hinting to the Church that part of her mission is to provide entertainment for the people, with a view to winning them. From speaking out as the Puritans did, the Church has gradually toned down her testimony, then winked at and excused the frivolities of the day. Then she tolerated them in her borders. Now she has adopted them under the plea of reaching the masses.

    My first contention is that providing amusement for the people is nowhere spoken of in the Scriptures as a function of the Church. If it is a Christian work, why did not Christ speak of it? "Go ye..." into all the world and speak the Gospel to every creature. That is clear enough. So it would have been if He had added, "and provide amusement for those who do not relish the Gospel." No such words, however, are to be found. It did not seem to occur to Him. Then again, "He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers ... for the work of the ministry." Where do entertainers come in? The Holy Spirit is silent concerning them. Were the prophets persecuted because they amused the people or because they refused? The concert has no honor roll.

    Again, providing amusement is in direct antagonism to the teaching and life of Christ and all His apostles. What was the attitude of the Church to the world? "Ye are the salt," not the sugar candy something the world will spit out, not swallow. Short and sharp was the utterance: "Let the dead bury the dead." He was in awful earnestness!

    Had Christ introduced more of the bright and pleasant elements into His mission, He would have been more popular when He and His disciples went back, because of the searching nature of His teaching. I do not hear Him say, "Run after these people, Peter, and tell them we will have a new kind of service tomorrow, something short and attractive with little preaching. We will have a pleasant evening for the people. Tell them they will be sure to enjoy it. Be quick, Peter; we must get the people somehow!" Jesus pitied sinners, sighed and wept over them, but never sought to amuse them. In vain will the epistles be searched to find any trace of the gospel of amusement. Their message is, "Come out, keep out, keep clean out!" Anything approaching fooling is conspicuous of its absence. They had boundless confidence in the Gospel and employed no other weapon. After Peter and John were locked up for preaching, the Church had a prayer meeting, but they did not pray, "Lord, grant unto Thy servants that by a wise and discriminating use of innocent recreation we may show these people how happy we are." If they had ceased not for preaching Christ, they had not time for arranging entertainments. Scattered by persecution, they went everywhere preaching the Gospel.

    They "turned the world upside down." That is the only difference! Lord, clear the Church of all the rot and rubbish the devil has imposed on her, and bring us back to apostolic methods.

    Lastly, the mission of amusement fails to effect the end desired. It works havoc among young converts. Let the careless and scoffers, who thank God because the Church met them halfway, speak and testify. Let the heavy-laden who found peace through the concert not keep silent! Let the drunkard to whom the dramatic entertainment had been God's link in the chain of his conversation, stand up! There are none to answer. The mission of amusement produces no converts. The need of the hour for today's ministry is believing scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is Biblical doctrine, so understood and felt that it sets men on fire.

    -C. H. Spurgeon
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    The blood of Christ is applied in a PDC in evangelism, worship, serving, learning, and fellowshipping. None of those things can take place without it.

    Don't confuse PDC with entertainment. While some, including Warren IMO, have become guilty of entertainement, the PDC method is actually just the NT church's responsibility. It is unfortunate that it has become so synonymous with Warren. Many people had the PDC idea before him. He simply popularized it.
     
  9. LarryN

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    From the Purpose Driven Statement of Faith:
    An excerpt from PDL outline materials:
    Just a couple of quickly found citations of the Blood in PDL materials.

    Whether or not the PDL book itself provides much explicit mention of the Blood I don't know. Most of the people using the book are frequently using it in study groups in which addl. outline materials (study guides, if you will), and also videos are used. Is Christ's Blood possibly stressed in those? I wonder if those who would attempt to claim that Rick Warren and/or PDL somehow omit Christ's blood in atonement really have any idea what they're talking about; or if they're just caught-up in a misguided vendetta.
     
  10. gb93433

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    Saddleback having planted about 40 churches is not about entertainment. It is about hard work and being about God's business. Warren does not work alone. That church would have never gotten that large on his own efforts.
     
  11. gb93433

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    Psalm145 3

    Take that word entertainment in the context of its day.
     
  12. Bob Colgan

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    PSALM 145 3

    I believed Spurgen summed it up very well.
    look at what the church has become since he spoke
    if we continue in the direction of the Warren's and all the other Neo Evangelicals, what will things look like 10 to 20 years from now. The long term affect of the Neo Evangelical movement is very damaging and Warren is just the latest to push that philosphy. Whats wrong with doing what Jesus taught lets go out and preach the Word of God in boldness without comprimise (not watered down)and in love. It's obvious these guys think they are wiser than God's Holy Word.

    Bob C
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    If I am preaching and then say, "Hey, everybody gets a free lunch", you might think that is pretty worldly and secular.

    Appreciate the direct quotations about the blood. That issue is a spurious attack that is unwarranted.

    I was at Saddleback in July and again a week ago. The Gospel clearly presented. Open plea for salvation. Believer's baptism following. It was awesome.

    The PD Youth Ministry revolutionized my son's church, with doctrinal teaching and hundreds of kids saved and discipled.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    I didn't say or imply anything of the sort. I don't think Warren is all about entertainment. I think some of his church is about entertainment. As I have said in the past, I think Warren had done many good things. But I think some things are extremely misguided in the application of the PDC, and I think that some of his application leads to an entertainment philosophy.

    But the point is this: The PDC model does not demand such a philosophy. Spurgeon's comments are irrelevant to the PDC model, though they may be relevant to some of the applications of the PDC model in some churches.
     
  15. Bob Colgan

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    Dr Bob,
    I haven't been to Saddleback so if what your saying is correct then PRAISE GOD. The problem is that what I have read and seen at other churches that are set up like Saddleback is that slowley and steady they keep moving away from God's Word. They start to replace the Bible with seculare books I know of Sunday School clases that a Bible hasen't been open in a year but all these other books have and this is happening in so called fundamental Bible believing Churches.
    EXAMPEL: I was at a church a few weeks ago a church member got up and said she was reading Purpose Driving Life on a plain ride and the girl next to her over saw the book she was reading, and said she had heard about it and asked questions and the church member ended up giving her the book, all she did is talk about the book with the unsaved girl how great of a book it was ect... that woman left with out being told about Jesus Christ. Now I know many will say well thats the church members fault but this is very prevelant in the Neo Evangelical Churches. I know because I have witnessed to many who have been going to one of these churches for years and have never accepted Christ as Savior. But hey they feel good. The long term affects of this garbage is devestating. People may not agree with me so be it I'm sure I'll be in the minority but don't tell me I have no right to say what I say are that it is unwarranted just because you disagree.

    Bob C
     
  16. SaggyWoman

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    The Apostle Paul told his buddy, Timothy to

    (1) Preach the word, in and out of season

    and

    (2) Do the work of an Evangelist


    Preach and evangelize. Is that all there is to purpose? Nah. Disciple, train others to do the same. And worship God. It is all biblical.
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    Bob, YOU said they did not have the blood, salvation, etc. Post #1. That was the debate - an attack.

    Proof positive - direct quotations form the doctrinal statement, books, etc, of the foundation of the blood of Christ for salvation, not anecdotal stories about airplane rides - that the attack on this aspect of PDL is UNWARRANTED.

    Not that I just disagree with you. You were shown your information was wrong and attack unwarranted.

    Now, I'm no apologist for Warren and there are LOTS of areas on which you and I would agree in this debate. The abselce of salvation/blood is not one of them. [​IMG]
     
  18. Johnv

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    WHere is the shed blood of Jesus in a nativity play? No where. You're doing the old apples and oranges shuffle.
     
  19. Johnv

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    Funny, I was there at the same time, and never once saw a bowtie in the crowd [​IMG] Saddleback is about 15 minutes south of me.
     
  20. Bob Colgan

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    Dr. Bob
    I don't see where I said they don't have the blood, salvation maybe you have me mixed up with someone else if I said that or implied that I was wrong. But I don't think I did. I couldn't say that about them since I have never been there. I speak in general terms about the neo-evangelical movement and I do place Saddleback in that catagory.
    TRUE STORY: My wife came home tonight from work she had her Christian music playing at work.(to get to the point) This girl said she was a Christian and they had a Bible study at her work place and they were studying Warrens book PDL. My wife without knowing suggested to the girl why don't you also bring your Bible not knowing if they did or didn't and the girl said "You know that sounds like a good idea maybe we will."
    kind of sad.
    You know I'm in favor of getting people into church but it seems like so many churchs are so affraid of offending people with God's word that they do every thing to avoid it so people aren't offended and christian books are replacing the Book.

    Bob C
     

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