IS the "Restainerr' mentioned By Apostle Paul the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    if yes...

    can the Beast and false prophet EVER happened in past, as he was always still here restraing them from appearing?

    Doesn't this show us the Futurist approach to events still best to take from Bible?
     
    #1 JesusFan, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    If this is the Holy Spirit holding back on His allowance of mans sin, then He is Sovereignly controlling man.

    It would also insinuate He allows sin.

    If God allows man to go into full reprobation, then He is also allowing sin there too.

    I believe God in total Sovereign control of all things, and all that He has purposed will come to pass.

    This does not make God the author of sin as some have laid claim to as the meaning. His Sovereignty and Righteousness cannot and never will be effected by that which He allows and permits and decrees, because He in His being is immutably Perfect and Holy eternally.

    - Peace and Grace
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    (....psssst.....you need to get one of those premil sensationalist manuals or charts or diagrams so that you can properly follow along with JesusFan, revmwc, and lastday on posts such as these....)
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0

    OR better yet...

    JUST read and study from the Bible what Jesus Paul John said about the last days...

    Our theology is ALL found revealed by God in there!
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    The premil sensationalist view makes chop suey of any sound continuity that is to be found in the prophecies. 'You people' err right from the very gitgo in ignoring/disregarding the plain simple time statements given to us in the Bible; such as:

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

    And in those days cometh John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, saying, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 3.1-2

    From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt 4.17

    And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2.40

    And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mt. 3:10

    But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

    Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

    Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jn 21:22- 23

    For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10:37

    Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23: 34-36

    But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

    John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire: whose fan is in his hand, thoroughly to cleanse his threshing-floor, and to gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Lu 3:17

    Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. I Cor 10.11

    Let your forbearance be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Phil 4:5

    hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:2

    else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb 9:26

    who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, 1 Pet 1:20

    But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer: 1 Pet 4.7

    For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Pet 4:17

    And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth not, and their destruction slumbereth not. 2 Pet 2.3

    Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour. 1 Jn 2: 18

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

    I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

    Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

    And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

    Compare with:

    (26 And the vision of the evenings and mornings which hath been told is true: but shut thou up the vision; for it belongeth to many days to come. Dan 8
    4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12)

    'You people' would come a looooong way towards the truth if you could/would only recognize that Christ did indeed come in judgment on 'that very wicked generation' BEFORE the same passed away.
     
    #5 kyredneck, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    ONLY problem though is that our view on eschatology lines up with Apostles paul and John so?
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    I quoted above Christ, John the Baptist, and the apostles John, Paul, & Peter.
     
  8. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    true, but there is still much that still remains to be fulfilled in eschatology!
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

    24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days. Acts 3

    'You people', with your tunnel vision focused only on 'the future', and your shallow hasty approach to scripture, totally ignore/disregard such passages as these.
     
  10. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    So show us in Scripture or Church History where it is recorded that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Of course scripture shows the Church taken out 7 years prior to the Tribulation. So far you have put verse after verse with your interpretation but have given no facts to prove it occured when you say happened. Since the Holy Spirit is the Revealer of all Spiritual things there must be some Scriptural reference to show Christ returned as you say He did. The Spirit would reveal it to us that is certain. Documentation please.
    If as you say it has been fulfilled please provide scripture that now applies to us as believers because we don't belong to the church. Where do we fit in the plan of God, we are not part of the church because Christ was to return for His church and then the Kingdom. The Kingdom would have been 1000 years and then New Jerusalem would rest on the New Earth with a New Heaven. So where are we currently?
     
    #10 revmwc, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  11. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    I've already provided ample scripture showing the imminent return of Christ to 'that generation'. To deny that is to make Christ and the apostles liars.

    [edit] ...and I did it without a manual, chart, or diagram; just plain ol' simple passages from the Bible.
     
    #11 kyredneck, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  12. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Since the book of Jude was written after 70 A.D. where does Jude tell us Christ returned and why was Jude written. The "that generation" is qualified by several verse that says the generation that sees all those signs, so when did the that generation see all those things fulfilled, everyone of them not just the destruction of Jerusalem. I have debated without charts and manuals and brought scripture after scripture. So where does it say and Christ returned and gathered His church and took them home to New Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?

    Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Notice verse 33 you have not explained it because verse 34 goes with it "when did they see ALL these things"? Because for the "this generation" to be the generation you say then ALL must have been fuflilled.
    Let's look at these things and you tell us where you can show them ALL as fulfilled:

    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
    I can answer this as fufilled in 70 A.D.


    5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Fulfilled or continuing today?


    6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    Fulfilled or continuing?

    7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    Fufilled or continuing?

    9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Fuflfilled or continuing?

    10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Fulfilled or continuing?

    11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    Fulfilled or continuing?

    12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Fulfilled or continuing?

    14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Fulfilled, continuing or still to be fulfilled?

    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice the abomination must be standing in the Holy Place for 3 1/2 years before Christ returned, so this is either fulfilled and scripture should show it or yet to be fulfilled, it is not the destruction of the temple.

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    Fulfilled or yet to come?

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

    25Behold, I have told you before.
    26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    Fulfilled or yet to come?

    27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Fulfilled or yet to come?
    Keep in mind you have to have everything above fulfilled for this to be.

    32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    Fulfilled or yet to come?

    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    Fulfilled or yet to come?

    42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Does this apply for us or has it been fulfilled?

    43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


    44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
    Do we need to heed this or not worry about it?

    45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
    46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
    47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
    48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
    Fulfilled or yet to be fulfilled?

    There must be something that proves ALL these things have been fulfilled either scriptural records or historically or they have not been fulfilled because God is not the author of confussion but satan is. God would have clearly given us direction for our lives after this point if all this had been fulfilled instead what we have is:

    Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Again Fulfilled or yet to come? Notice verses 6 and 7 they fit your definition of Him having returned in 70 A.D. So are we all now living in the New Jerusalem?

    And all this without a manuel.
     
    #12 revmwc, Jun 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2011
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    when 'those things" start to come to pass...
    When beast/False prophet arise, with Worlsd under control of man of Sin
    When jesus is coming back for His Church, than returning to the earth

    Indeed THAT generation all of that occurs in will be fast and quick! he will come quickly, all things will be wrapped up quickly, THAT generation will be alive to see/meet the Lord!
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Are folks in here arguing that the Second Coming is over and done with? Is that what they are saying?
     
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0

    Basicaslly that the Second Coming and prophecy concerning revelation and pauline writings fulfilled in AD 70 by temple destruction, isreal 'destroyed" by act of God...

    saying that prophecy was written symbolically/metaphorially, and that second coming was spiritual in nature!
    taht ALL trhings happened/fulfilled in THAT generation that saw and heard Jesus!
     
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh. OK. I'll let my church know this Sunday. They've all been waiting His return. They're going to be a little let down over this.

    :rolleyes: :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    We have had several running threads of debate on this. The Hyper-Preterist see the 70 A.D. destruction as fulfillment of Matthew and Luke passages, and that Christ "Spirtually" or "metaphorically" returned at that time to fulfill judgement upon Israel and there is no other return coming. That we are now in the Kingdom.

    We who have opposite view are futruist to them.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72586 Here is a thread to one if you want to see the debate in full.


    These are closed: (read only)

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72195

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72183

    Anyway we dispisys as we are called still see a future for Israel and many O.T. prophecies to be fulfilled literally the Presterist see them as "spiritual" or "metaphorical" or you might say symbolically.

    If you feel like joining come on, if your preterist they need some help defending their position.
     
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm no preterist, let's make certain that all are aware of this. I await the glorious appearing of Christ, not the ambiguous "appearing" in 70 A.D.

    :thumbsup:
     
  19. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Well you can still join in the debate if you like.
     
  20. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you miss getting your glorified Body, or is present one already "perfect?"
     

Share This Page

Loading...